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Are you missing the point on purpose Byte or just choosing to ignore it? No one has problems with 2 demos for example in the middle fights on gran/blands. They choose to get more spam firepower and map control ability for the loss of a scout/soldiers abilities. Why ppl dont like 2 demos is because usually ppl use them to lock down a point. Think about well. If the offence isn’t a quick push due to a tough middle fight or whatever, the easiest def tactic is to switch to 2 demos. Sticky up both the doors nad just force the offence team to build uber(while you build yours) and then force them to use it early in their push. Which usually means you get to uber back on them pretty nicely.

In general the problem is with map design. Most of the maps have cps where 2 demos can easily sticky up all the entrences.

I dont have problem with _you_ byte just people who act like they are the center of the world, ultimate authority, w/e.

And I was Byte just teasing, wotr atleast used to make a big deal about themselves, even when they weren’t even a good clan (by div1 standards) =)

You just had a post full of that good ol’ “wotr rules and so do I”- rhetoric, had to tease you a bit for it.

And yes with coinz and appz wotr actually might be good enough to talk the talk and walk the walk, so to speak =))

Class limit should be set to one, it would make the game far more interesting to watch and to play :) Plus it would have the benefit of spreading the skill more throughout the leagues and of course benefit those players who’s chosen class is spy/pyro/sniper/engy.

word darn.. two demo setups are just totally retarded.. its no fun for anyone!
besides the demos giggling about their skillless spam kills..

pro demo limit 1 !!!

This is a topic that really needs discussion and I’ll give you my point of views. I’d recommend to stick to CL2 ML1 or if a switch is needed, just go directly to CL1. I’m 100% fine with both. Reasons?

A) CL1. This would force major switches in setups equally for every clan, which I would be totally fair for all clans. Only thing is, this would make the game less tactical thus the setups would be pretty much the same with every clan.

B) CL2 ML1. This has been the class limit for the game for quite some time and all clans have adapted to it already and made their own way of playing the game using these limits, fair for everyone.

C) CL2 ML1 DL1. This setup would hurt most the teams that have two good demos and some clans might have built their lineups totally considering that option, while some clans rely on 2 demomen, some clans might rely on 2 great scouts more than other. This change would totally be unfair for those some clans who would be forced to alter their tactics and lineups (option A would cause that to all/most of the clans).

While there is talk about 2 demomen being less spectator friendly, I think it’s mostly in the eye of the beholder. Some prefer other stuff, some the other and it is a tactical choise to play 2 demoman and maybe not use a soldier at all or so.

Less skilled? Sure, there is more spam, there was also a lot of spam in QWTF and it didn’t make the game less skilled. Many ways to overcome that and with every tactic, there surely is a counter one and there is always the chance to withdraw from that position and take better positions to take the enemy offence/counterattack and that is part of the strategic aspect to the game and TF2 is one of the most strategic FPS games where a lot of teamplay is involved. Makes the game too slow? considering all that strategic aspect and how the game most likely will be played in the top level in the future (considering the money prices), well then my friend TF2 might not be the game for you.

Just want to keep the discussion up and try to affect things to come when you still can and trying to reason with my point of views. I wasn’t around when ML1 came around, so I’ll try to give my share in this discussion about DL1. And nevertheless the outcome of this talk, I’ll still keep playing the game and play it as it is agreed to. :)

ps. Valve indeed has acknowledged the demoman issue, especially the stickies, who knows what they might come up with and how the game will evolve. I myself am looking forward to it. :)

Discuss! :)

i cba repeating all the reasons against 2 demo.

there must be good reason why NA leagues decided to introduce the demo limit 1.. and imo they are damn right.

(word Evil!)

Whenever a game offers certains variants to play it, there will be some variants that will be stronger than others (football: 4-5-1 >> 4-4-2 >> 4-3-3 or whatever). But every variant has a counter, if the game is well designed. You state, that some maps are not well designed and two demos can seal all entries off and lead to a stalemate. Well, than so be it. Maybe we just do not have the appropriate counter against this tactic and trying to score a draw is a valid tactic.

Riemu, much respect to you, but who says how this game is to be played? Most of the time, restrictions are set up because the people playing that game did not like it, because it contradicted their view of that game. In fact, if they set up these restrictions, they play another game, not the one designed originally: They play their own game which happens to share some elements and the name with the original game.

I once read a brilliant article about exactly this topic, which said, that there was a game called Mortal Kombat, that had a super-move, a foot-sweeper. And that gamers with little skill could kill others by repeatedly doing that move. It was considered lame, but there was no way to stop players from doing that. After a certain time, someone implemented a counter to that move and now, once you tried to foot-sweep your opponent, you would run a high risk of being countered yourself. Of course, there was a counter to that counter and that was all it needed: Every match now involved a lot of speculation and guessing about what the opponent would be doing. You now needed the knowledge about all counters and a good tactical knowledge.
Compared to a scenario where the foot-sweepers would have been forbidden, the game had evolved and the players had improved.

The more restrictions, the easier the game gets.
Maybe we just haven’t found the right counter against two Demos on Turbine/2Fort, though I suspect it will involve spies, scouts and snipers. Just because we haven’t found it yet does not mean it does not exist.

I am clearly against DL1.

Side-Note:
Well, I do not know, what you are playing, CableGuy, but stating that the Demoman is overpowered is wrong. Besides the things already mentioned (no real close-combat ability, quite indirect fire rather easy to evade), there is another hint to the Demomen not being overpowered: Look at the points, the players get in a war. I do not see, that the Demomen are the point leaders behind the Medic. I rather often see them at the bottom of the table.
And being a Demo-player myself, I know that good scouts can tear you apart. Or a good soldier. Or a good sniper. Or a good hw-guy. Or a good spy (damn, I hate them). Or a good pyro (back-burner ftw). It all depends on the situation.

TF2 is the best game I ever played and it certainly is the one with the most delicate balance.

I’d like to see some better defined arguments here than something like “they use it, so it must be good!!” ;P

The only problem I see it why the 2 x demoman could be a problem is that on some maps you can choke the map pretty well on some points (especially on cp_well cp2) and how is that a problem? it slows the game down to try to get the advantage for yourself. On other maps I don’t think it really is that much of a problem, just a strategical choice of using the best classes for your clan, there is always a way to overcome 2 demomen tactics like in cp3 fights when clashing up with the other clan in start of the round.

And to get to the bottom of the problem, it’s mostly the stickies. Grenades are pretty much fine as they are and there _will_ be a change considering the stickies, we have no idea what it will be but a nerf will be coming so no reason to rushing up to any further limits at the very moment, but a good talk considering issues like these is always lucrative.

About the balance of the game, well I think if u put up equally skilled scout & demo to fight on granary/badlands or so, neither one will be dominating, the edge might even be on the scouts, both have their strenghts and weaknesses. Add up a 2 demoman vs 2 scout … same result I think. 2 Demomen will really need support from the other players in clan to stay alive and well, that’s all about teamwork then and as Byte said, they got beaten using 2 demos in a top tier clan match, how did that happen when 2 demos is soooo overpowered?