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What would make for even teams?

Created 29th August 2012 @ 23:55

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Trath

12 people add to a pickup.
Obviously, not all are equal in skill.

Medic1 > Medic2
Demoman1 > Demoman2
Soldier1 > Soldier2 > Soldier3 > Soldier4
Scout1 > Scout2 > Scout3 > Scout4

How would you go on dividing them to result in teams being as even as possible?
For example:

Demomen are split randomly

Medic1 goes to Demoman2’s team (Better medic with worse Demoman)

Soldier2 and Soldier3 go to Medic2’s team (average soldiers with worse medic and better Demoman)

Scout2 and Scout4 go to Medic1’s (better scouts with good Med, worse demo, best and worst Soldiers)

Take your time to think about it, and also don’t forget to give a wall of text explaining your thinking.

Thanks.

Gubbins

Op4

Now imagine the different in teams when Demo1 is kaidus and demo2 is seb. Then replace seb with koeitje. Same teams with a different demo on one, MASSIVE difference. Screw Koeitje.

laerin

-9w-

Demo 1, Soldier 1, Soldier 4, Scout 2, Scout 3, Medic 2

Demo 2, Soldier 2, Soldier 3, Scout 1, Scout 4, Medic 1

This whole idea doesn’t really work when certain players have huge skill differences and others have lower. Plus if say all the scouts are really bad, and there’s 1 good soldier and 1 good demo or another similar situations, teams would also become imbalanced.


Last edited by laerin,

Nymthae

-9w-
-9m-

I’m guessing a bigger issue with that is the difference in skills will not be consistent between the 2 (or 4) players. Play styles will have somewhat an impact as well, but speaking arbitrarily:

I think you’d probably want to split the scouts as done (1+3, 2+4) because by doing 2+3, 1+4 the chances of having one strong scout being pushed 2v1 all the time seems more likely if they have half a brain.

1+3 scouts with the worse demo, 2+4 with the better then – as the better demo surely should be more capable of self-protection or better positioning to avoid it etc.

Soldiers are harder imo, and chances are they will have the biggest impact as to whether your medic stays alive or not in a pug. A worse demo would probably be doing less damage let’s say, so that’s putting more pressure to the solders to do so. If you put on average a more consistent but ‘worse’ team with the better demo, it’s kinda all about whether the demo can actually pull off being good without the cover.

Probably 2+3 Sol with the worse demo to balance on damage output. The team with the 4 soldier should be fine med covering with the better demo and best soldier.

In summary, it’ll probably never be quite right :p

Gubbins

Op4

Quoted from Nymthae

In summary, it’ll probably never be quite right :p

TheSucker

[d¿s]
007

Match med1+dem2 and med2+dem1, then after that stop looking at the classes as if the skill difference is constant between ’em. Just look at them as their pure number rating. If for example you have pixel’s skill rating, a number for their div (0 = prem, 1 = div1 etc) then start looking at the combined number each team becomes with the rest of the players, and make the team numbers as close to each other as possible.

That should help balance out the problems caused by the big differences the different medics and demos could be in terms of skill. If they’re all close in skill, the scouts and soldiers will be evenly seperated. But if team2 is having a big drop in skill after the med+dem has been divided, the “worse” team will get an average of better scouts/soldiers to make up for that.


Last edited by TheSucker,

AcidReniX

RaWr ::

You just enable a !voteshuffle command, for where people can see that the teams are heavily stacked. If it gets 9 votes, then it can shuffle the teams.

Waebi

‹Con›

asked my CS teacher back then when skyride wanted to do it, referred/suggested 2 things to me:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knapsack_problem
– random the teams up, see team value, if ok, go on, if not, random again, will be ez on any decent processor and not take long (couple dozen possibilities in seconds).

Mors Immortalis

KoP!?

@Trath: Funny how we’ve made similar team splitting thingy on our polish pickup channel a few weeks ago ;)
(http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=i0wFM8kC)

* med 2 med 1
* demo 1 demo 2
* scout 4 scout 1
* scout 2 scout 3
* sold 1 sold 4
* sold 3 sold 2

Problem as stated above is the skill assignment and a case when all 4 scouts or soldiers are playing somewhat equal but one demo is way better than the other one.
Or 1 scout is beast while others are playing worse than him, same goes for soldiers.

But unless people on the channel are playing on a similar level it should work quite correctly IF the skills are assigned correctly

We’ve got players from div3 – div4, and mainly div5 but also some newcomers below div6.

But we’ve got like ~70 players on average playing on the weekend on our pickup, as we’ve made it weekend only pickups to make games occur more often and to reduce time u need to play a game (~1 game per hour, 40 – 50 games per weekend) and on european pickup u need to take care of a lot more players and assign a proper skill each of them.

We are still working on our skill assignment as it’s the key part to make this team assignment system work correctly most of the time.

5-0 games will still occur if some of those worst case scenario above will take place.


Last edited by Mors Immortalis,

Trath

Damn I knew this would be really hard.
I’ve worked so much on the bot, I just can’t make myself actually think about this right now.
I’m no mathematical or programming genius, but I know it is possible to set up a good system / algorithm for this. ( like in the Israeli pickup bot ).

I am going to go with TheSucker’s way, pair up good med with bad demo, then scouts+soldiers are divided to make teams ranking average as close as possible.

So I divided the Demomen randomly, then paired BadMed with GoodDemo and vice versa.

Now I have 4 soldiers and 4 scouts:
sol0
sol1
sc0
sc1
etc…

If I’m not mistaken, there are 256 possibilities as to teaming them up. (2 soldiers + 2 scouts = 4. Each “slot” has 4 different player possibilities, so 4 to the power of 4 = 256?)

So its gonna start with a for “i < 256" I guess. I can't think of how to actually go through each possibility. (programming side)

Like I said, I can't think clearly right now, I'll get back to it in a few hours. I hope someone will have the answer written down :D

¤____________¤

You can never get a perfect system and there will always be some 5-0s, that is unavoidable. However splitting the classes in a way suggested above will prevent situations which can occur with the captain system when one/both captains don’t know who the better players are and you end up with the best demo/sollys/scout on the same team.

I’m kinda new to comp but it seems to me that a simple div ranking wouldn’t work because certain classes can have a much larger effect on the game. A prem demo is going to swing the tides of balance more than a prem medic is likely to. The same is possibly true for a prem pocket vs a prem scout.

To my relatively uninformed mind it seems the best method could well be med 1, demo2 vs med 2, demo 1, and then splitting the scouts/sollys in such a way that there is a minimum division difference. However you would also probably need a check that the medic/demo combos are relatively balanced and if they’re not then you ideally would want to stack the scouts/sollys the other way. Problem is that this would be getting rather complicated to code!

Quoted from Trath

If I’m not mistaken, there are 256 possibilities as to teaming them up. (2 soldiers + 2 scouts = 4. Each “slot” has 4 different player possibilities, so 4 to the power of 4 = 256?)

I think you are mistaken here. It’s been a long time since I did stats but I think you essentially have two groups of 4 and want to pick 2 from each group, in such a way that the order in which they are picked does not matter (making it a combination not a permutation – which is what you are thinking along the lines of). The mathematical function for this is 4C2 (at least that is how it appears on a calculator :P)

4C2 = 6 (ie 6 ways of picking 2 items from a total of 4), but you need to divide this by 2 as the pair left over is the same as some of the possibly pairs picked.

Hence 3 ways of splitting the 4 scouts (1 and 2, 1 and 3, 1 and 4 and the corresponding counter pairs).
Then once the scouts/sollys are in groups of two you have 2 different ways of pairing up the pairs. Making there 6 possibilities overall.

Now, the above might be wrong, haven’t done stats for like 4 years now, but I think it’s right.


Last edited by ¤____________¤,

evokje

WiK?

People add and then medics pick teams?

Squirry

nNT ≠

We’d be in the same situation. The leader will pick his friends, and that would be unbalanced as fuck. Anyways, the’re always people asking “Boy could u swap me with this guy, we’re friends, and yeee” . So it’s unavoidable.

Trath

Quoted from Mors Immortalis

@Trath: Funny how we’ve made similar team splitting thingy on our polish pickup channel a few weeks ago ;)
(http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=i0wFM8kC)
[…]

Problem as stated above is the skill assignment and a case when all 4 scouts or soldiers are playing somewhat equal but one demo is way better than the other one.
Or 1 scout is beast while others are playing worse than him, same goes for soldiers.

But unless people on the channel are playing on a similar level it should work quite correctly IF the skills are assigned correctly

We’ve got players from div3 – div4, and mainly div5 but also some newcomers below div6.

But we’ve got like ~70 players on average playing on the weekend on our pickup, as we’ve made it weekend only pickups to make games occur more often and to reduce time u need to play a game (~1 game per hour, 40 – 50 games per weekend) and on european pickup u need to take care of a lot more players and assign a proper skill each of them.

We are still working on our skill assignment as it’s the key part to make this team assignment system work correctly most of the time.

5-0 games will still occur if some of those worst case scenario above will take place.

Yeah but I’m looking to go more complicated than just pairing without looking at the team as a whole.

Before TheSucker, I was thinking pair sol1,sol3 and med2. (so sol2,sol4 with med1). And then split Demomen and Scouts to even the average. But when he wrote do Demomen+Meds, it made more sense because as a Class they have more weight than other.

So even if a sick scout is in the pickup with 3 div 6 scouts, the soldiers can make things even. Same can be said about sick soldier and 3 div 6 soldiers – the scouts will balance things out hopefully.

Also, the plan is to have players rank change according to win/loss and Team1RankAverage divided by Team2RankAverage.
So the initial skill rating isn’t too big of a deal, because over more and more matches, it will make itself more right. (Expectancy to win) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system
Since there are so many European players, it means they will be allowed to rank themselves initially. Admins can change rankings if they see somebody abusing or totally overrating/underrating themselves.


Last edited by Trath,

Monkeh

.:ne:.
.:ne:.

Can we add up peoples divisions and make some kind of average?

one div 3 medic and one div 5, two Div 4 sollies, one div 6 and one div 3, one div 2 demo and one div 4, two div 5 scouts, one div 3 and one div 6.

Blu team=Medic (5) demo (2) Sollies (4 + 3) Scouts (5 + 6) = 25 Divisions
Red team=Medic (3) demo (4) Sollies (4 + 6) Scouts (3 + 5) = 25 Divisions

‘Divisions’ is the new measure of a team’s skill btw.

Something like that might work… spread the skill man, spread the skill.


Last edited by Monkeh,

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