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A Painful Introspective

Created 19th December 2011 @ 01:10

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CrashSite

RIPMOULD

Quoted from Ritalin

[…]

I’m agreeing with you (I think you may have misinterpreted).

Thought you meant split would happen between those who played etf2l and esl.

Spike Himself

TC

I think people miss the point a fair bit when it comes to the whole ESL/Wire business. So you played your game, and Wire decides that something went wrong and your game gets forfeited due to a ridiculous amount of unfair penalty points.

Unfair? Yeah pretty much. Disappointing? Most likely. Waste of time? Nope – you still played TF2 because you enjoy doing so.

Also, I need to sleep.

Ritalin

[d¿s]

Quoted from CrashSite

[…]

Thought you meant split would happen between those who played etf2l and esl.

I just hope that it doesn’t split the community, and that people are able to enjoy playing in both leagues.


Last edited by Ritalin,

lolage

TSPAG

Quoted from Ritalin

[…]

I just hope that it doesn’t split the community, and that people are able to enjoy playing in both leagues.

The way things are going, it would be best for the 6v6 scene to go to ESL or some other league imo and leave highlander here.

For a serious 6v6 league, despite this website being very easy to use – this design is quite frankly laughable. I would have thought it would be hard to get a serious sponsor with how the website is at the moment.

CrashSite

RIPMOULD

Quoted from atmo

I agree that the direction the community seems to be taking isn’t a positive one. As CrashSite has highlighted, Prem seems to be off in its own ivory tower (with a few exceptions), moaning about how TF2 is dying while at the same time belittling the efforts of people “below” them that are trying to keep the game we all love alive.

Inevitably, players are going to leave, from real life commitments or otherwise. You need players to fill their place, and guess where they come from? Lower divisions.

I don’t really want to get in to an Us vs. Them kind of scenario, this scene is too small for internal feuding. But it feels like the top end could do with treating the bottom end more kindly.

And the bottom end treating the top end with a bit more respect in some cases.

TurboTabs

(Classy)
OPFOR

No one will want to read this but…

Summed up some of these quotes for length sake…

Quoted from CrashSite

As a competitive game, TF2 is looked upon as joke by many other communities, this reputation is due to everyone in the community and has nothing to do with the game.

So you’re saying that not a SINGLE community or audience bases negative opinion on a cartoon first person shooter released in 2007 that profits on people purchasing in-game items with real disposable income. Rather silly thing to say.

Quoted from CrashSite

The community is made up of self-interested people, bad manners and a lack of respect for others in the community. Etc etc etc.

Isn’t this typical with any competitive scene whatsoever? Shame we have to think of it as a “One bad apple spoils the bunch”- sort of thing..

I suppose you are right in a sense though.. but It would be incredibly difficult to exile this kind of behave no matter how much moderation/rules introduced and I don’t think it would be well worth the effort to what I think is quite trivial. All we can do is encourage teams to be nice and get treated nicely; be a dick and get dicked.

Quoted from CrashSite

Starting off with the complaint about bad default dates

Can’t the community start thinking of default dates as such.

“SCHEDULE YOUR GAMES, IF YOU DON’T, YOU HAVE A CHANCE TO NOT GET A DATE YOU WANT BUT THAT’S THE PRICE YOU PAY”

Quoted from CrashSite

there is a lot of ineptitude in the ranks (of the admins).

# There is a feedback forum on which you can comment on the admins and hopefully admins to note and improve upon
# They have access to only volunteered time of willing people

Quoted from CrashSite

ETF2L has done more harm than good for TF2, it is a place isolated from the rest of e-sports, we love it because it is our own and it is killing us.

How is it killing us right now? I don’t think we are slowly declining because we are not establishing e-sport status. I think the reason is a lot more complex than that… or that tf2 is getting old and all these new fresh games are replacing tf2 as the current flavour of gamers.

Besides. If we did have a e-sports status and motivated community; sure we would see huge growth but that would also see sharp declines of activity when a new fps with a slight competitive multi-player attached to it came out. People would follow where the money goes and that usually stays on a giant of it’s genre/style (CSS) and the newest game of said genre (COD).

I feel etf2l was crucial and IS still crucial because IT IS Comp (euro) TF2. It’s for the people, to the people and from the people who think this game is fun to play and win (perhaps even lose for some of you out there :D). It can’t change its agenda, drop us or anything like that easily like cadred or esl or any other league that has other investments.

Quoted from CrashSite

A point that was rather inadvertently raised by Greg on the podcast is an example of the problem. On his rant about admins he mentioned the Cup, how it was a joke BECAUSE no Prem teams joined. He wanted the admins to make an invite cup and reach out to the Prem players to ask if they would play.

If prem players would rather do other things then play a cup and let them. If they want to call it shit for whatever reason; let them be heard. If it’s something stupid like “NO OTHER PREM TEAMS” then ignore them.

Quoted from CrashSite

DJC scornfully said that he did not want his maps picked by some div three player and that their feedback was useless.

Fuck me we fixed this! We made a public vote and have a map discussion threads for people to voice their points, arguments and views. Admins aren’t even part of it this any more.

These examples show two of the most worrying signs for TF2. First is that Prem players are some of the worse for getting involved in the community. The Prem teams all know each other, they could have arranged it among themselves to all enter, instead, like four year olds, or like someone with a

Quoted from CrashSite

Dependence Entitlement

A google search leads me to believe that this doesn’t exist. Ad-least not on the internet.

Quoted from CrashSite

they wanted admins, nay, expected the admins to do it for them. This level of arrogance is astounding to me, it hurts so much to see the players who want the prize pots the most be the most unwilling to contribute themselves.

Have you heard of the term “You get what you put in”? Just let that take effect and quit whining about how people are whining.

Quoted from CrashSite

On DJC’s point, the same issue arises, the Map Testing Group that was setup to help new map makers get feed back and improve their maps for competitive play, is deviod of anyone Prem players and very few div one or two players as well. I would even hold them by their hands, as they seem incapable of organising themselves it seems, and organise the mixes for them. But not one has approached me about it. The same story is true of the Newbie Mix Group, what could be better than the Pros of a scene to show that they are willing to help new people. But the only one was Exfane, a rare White Knight, the rest are no where to be seen.

Please don’t see the prem players as arrogant because they don’t contribute to EVERY CAUSE. They are allowed to do what they see fit. If they complain about something that they could directly prevent, i guess they only have themselves to blame

Quoted from CrashSite

This problem of entitlement or laziness extends to most people. There was a rallying cry for writers on Cadred, something that the TF2 community rejected, in a, it is us against them, mentality. It would help bring new players into the scene, more sponsors, better LANs and yet no one would step up to the call. It takes little time or effort to help, yet no one stepped up.

I’m fine with the way things are at the moment (big picture wise) and maybe people agree with me. I never read cadred for tf2 coverage, I don’t want my hobby or interest to feel like a second job and I’m pretty cool with the i-series LANs that happen 3 times a year as it seems like it consolidates a lot of the community into one place at regular enough intervals for my free time of the year and my savings, instead of say for example.. the fighting community where theres like 2352345 events where maybe 2 or 3 of them aren’t complete wank. Perhaps everyone just didn’t help not because it fits there interests but their lazy. But that not everyone cared.

Quoted from CrashSite

The Podcast also pointed out that VanillaTF2 was the face of the community, so critised the posts maybe by Pledge and Byte for showing an ugly side. But you have to ask what it was replaced by. The next post was a link to the Podcast, where three people rip on others in the community, provide no solutions and represent the community in the worse possible light. The combined hypocrisy and stupidity that went into that thought is startling. The fact that a lot of the people like the Podcast shows we prefer to be mean-spirited, rather than supporting.

I think the fact that I think there is a time and a place. It seemed like regular harmless banter really and it’s funny to listen to. Most people try not to take it to heart because people enjoy a good laugh at themselves and each other every once and a while. Take Greg for example; being an excellent sport during all of Djc comments about Infused’s game. Whilst on forums posts, during games and new players posting usually I see a nice warm welcome or friendliness. Sure like i said. There are bad apples but can’t you and all of us follow you’re advise and be supporting and show appreciate towards the good people and ignore the bad people. Rather then attend and bark at the bad people and the bad things constantly.

Quoted from CrashSite

The newbie Christmas Cup offered me some hope, with players volunteering to help, a lot of them Prem, some going beyond the call of duty. But even this was tainted by the number of people so unwilling to even consider it. I stick around in TF2 for the people who are willing to put in the work: Pinky, who has helped and partly taken over the New Map Testers, Monkeh and especially Chaplain, who did so much work for the Newbie Mix Group with the Cup in particular, Greg and Admirable who wrote for Cadred. It is sad to see less of these people and more of the people who just do not care.

So take this as a plea or a warning, it doesn’t matter as long as you change. This applies to everyone, if you do not want to see the game die take some responsibility and grow up.

The game has quite a bit of life in it still (years). It’s nice to see you acknowleding people who’ve done some notable things for comp tf2 scene. “I think you need to let go of this tf2 can last forever if we all do stuff we don’t want to do guys” and live with the way things go

Quoted from CrashSite

It has taken this long for even a hint of prize money to enter into what is the largest TF2 league in the world. Sponsorships should have been more pursued much harder and actual cash prizes would do wonders for attracting sponsors for teams, even people from other games.

Honestly can people remind me of why we NEED a prize fund for TF2 leagues. All I see it as is a reason outside out “Having fun” to play a video game. I think having people stick around just for the prizes brings in the wrong kind of crowd I want to play with, sure they do bring a little hype to players and give them something to hope for more then their own satisfaction, you can’t spend satisfaction to go LANs to get more satisfaction I suppose. But again; think of the implications like the kind of audience we are attracting..

The kind of people that would tactically place dates at the inconvenience of their opponents just to get a cheap win. The kind that wouldn’t give a team a pause break for having a team member disconnect. The kind of people that would extend 2 heavy drama just so they can weasel their way out of a loss. The kind that would turtle out a 7 minute golden cap round rather then make things happen for the spectators.

Guys, I think you are just starting to get bored of Tf2 and instead of waste what time you’ve devoted to it, you want it to reward you another way.

tl;dr – Your attempt at a wake-up call I feel is lack-luster and poorly thought out. Here is my sad take on put into way too much text that suggest I care a little too much for a cartoon shooter with hats.


Last edited by TurboTabs,

Ghostface

spire

While I respect your opinion, I must say that for the most part Turbo, I disagree with it.

Also finally someone acknowledging that pirate radio as just a bunch of crap. Starts off with quality news, suddenly djc gives us his “great” input.

vani

F!

Quoted from CrashSite

Start helping getting people from public TF2 into the competitive scene. The gap between the two is huge, due to unlocks, maps etc. There are a few ways you can help.

I have no statistics or stuff like that but Im pretty sure that 2 out of 4 comp players dont play pub that often.

Quoted from CrashSite

Second there is the newbie Mix Group with can be a great way of getting people into Competitive, there are some issues with it, such as needing to convince people to form teams, but it is a start.

The problem here is that you dont want to get paired up with a 12 year old who can barely focus/understand the game/aim/rocketjump/etc. It is rather frustrating to try and help people out when they act unresponsive. Then again, I suppose volunteers are here to help them. But son, consider an age limit next time or anything similar.

Quoted from CrashSite

Third if you see a pubstar, ask if he wants to go mix with you at some point. It might only pick up one or two more people, but it helps and shows that we like people in pubs and are friendly.

Its by far more fun to seek nonamers who rapes on pub and see if theyre interested in 6v6 than to get assigned with a squad of newcomers. Most of these pubbers or in some cases div6/5 players can go really far with some help.

djc

d2f~

this thread should be retitled “An Effort in Taking Shit Way Too Fucking Seriously, authored by All of TF2’s biggest Spackers” holy shit guys

Chicken George

Warning;tl/dr post incoming. You were warned
Nice post, CrashSite. However, although It really has some valid points ( e.g. : arrogance, elitism, etc. etc.) it also has some flaws I’d like to speak about.
The main reason for these flaws to exist is that you make your analysis being a seasoned veteran; You only SUPPOSE what it means to enter the scene as a new player nowadays;
Now let me give you an insight on that – I am a new player who entered the scene only this Summer. I hope you can pay a minute to read my story and realise things are not that bad as they seem.
So, I’ve installed tf2 after a friend of mine told how awesome the game is. Now, I do realise that’s one big difference : I was told about 6v6 from the very beginning. So I haven’t played a single day on pubs.
Now, you say that It’s really hard for a new player to get used to comp without any help of an experienced player. No. That’s only because people are fucking lazy both in the game and in RL; they have a habit of saying “okay, that’s too hard, unfair for newbies etc etc”, that goes with tf2, rl jobs, pretty much anything. Speaking about tf2, they whine about pretty much everything. They try to play lobbies without even knowing what classes to play; they try to use direct hit on mge (and a lot of them do not know about mge at all, for example); they play in newbie group although they don’t know what rollout is. That’s the things a pro should tell ’em, you say? No! You can fucking google it all before playing. For example: when I realised i want to play competitive, i’ve spent some time watching videos/vods with comms to get the general idea. I’ve started playing on lobby to learn on my mistakes (those who say you can’t learn anything in lobbies;no you can, it all depends on people playing), i’ve started playing on dm/mge servers and I was completely aware of the fact i gonna lose everything for the first month, at least. So, after a month, I understood I want to play medic.
What next? More videos! And more videos. And comms. And articles, you know, you can google it all. When to go back, what to call, how to uber, for the basics…How to maincall, how to calculate advantage, you can fucking google it all! You also have etf2l forum where I was able to find various cool stuff like Chris’ cfgs, huds, etc.
Now, after some time I started to feel I am becoming pretty good compared to others with same playing time. I’ve also realised that medic is really underestimated…No one utilises his dm ability well (and you can use it without any harm to your team…just need to do in in right moments), no one tries to play innovatively. That made me think I should keep maining medic. I’ve found awesome taimoutv channel, that was just the thing i need; finally a medic with same mind pattern. From another side, I was watching all pov with comms by better callers like byte, fish etc to look at “traditional” medics. Hell, i was even watching qun tv and pov of every other classes, just to understand how the game works. I also kept playing in lobbies and on dms using other classes; I am still very bad at it but it helps me a lot.
Some time passed and season 10 was about to start; I realised i must play it to have my painful first season in order to progress. But how to prepare for it? I didn’t have any experienced tf2 friends on steam, neither I had any real pcw experience. And practice, as you all know, is everything. So…is THAT the point when a pro should help you? yes, and no. Yes, because some answers can only be answered by an experienced player; No, because YOU are interested in becoming better, not PROS are interested in you becoming better. You have to fucking put some effort into it; I’ve found newbie mix group, and, luckily, had some help from the start by some awesome players. I mean, not all higher divs players are arrogant assholes; many, but not all. So far, i was given a lot of information by : Anathema, Shifty, ThePledge, Sketch. None of them said “fuck off” or “sorry, no time for help” even though I’ve added them first. Now, why do you think they should really be interested in helping? Consider yourself being them. Why would you waste your time saying things you’ve said 100 times before to some lower div shitter? But they spent some time, anyways.
So, finally, I was feeling like playing in a team. That’s the point where remaining pubbers are leaving the game; yes, no one wants you in their team. Why should they? You are nothing so far; no experience, no team history. You could be a great person and a player; but how could people know that? Too many new players/ teams dropped straight after first few game. Should pro’s help you? No, help yourself! Organise your fucking team. Yes, it’s hard as hell…But it’s the experience you need!
What have I done? I thought “hey, they say you should start in div6”. True, but in div6, sometimes it’s more like a pub, and I expected a lot of teams to drop. So, I thought, It might be cooler to gather some people who are a little better than div6 and have a hard season of pain and suffer in div5; You WILL lose, but you’ll be really good by the end of the season, because you can’t fucking develop if you play against people worse than you.
So I’ve spoken with several people and made a team. If any of new players read that and consider doing it: make sure you have a server, you are ready to lose and so are your players. Only in that case you’ll progress. How did I find players? You won’t believe, but randomly. Someone from newbie mixes;someone from lobbies;etc etc. The only point common for all of them was no one had a season full of experience; and everyone was cool =)
So, what do we have after a season? Was the season hard? Yes. Did you lose pretty much everything? Yes. Was it worth it? Oh fuck yes. I can’t even say how funny it was, how many good people i’ve met, how much experience I’ve had. Sadly, I had to stop for a bit after the season; my grades in the uni went down dramatically during the season, lol. Other two members had same issues, one with work, second with study; But hey, the main reason of the team’s being was to everyone to have one season experience so they could have a good team and good future; And that was it. 3 people who didn’t take a pause after the s10 end are now in really good teams; 3 people who took a pause can be pretty sure they’ll find anything suitable for them with some effort put in.
Main idea of the post? yes, you need help, but don’t be fucking lazy and you can do everything, both in tf2 and rl.
Thanks for your attention.

Extremer

ESL is a terrible league. Supporting it for the prizes is fucking stupid since actually getting those prizes is highly unlikely. Remember the Blight vs Epsilon EMS final match exactly a year ago? Yeah, still haven’t received the prizes.

Basically what I’m saying is, where the fuck is my money?!

Linus

[d¿s]
007

omg guys stop writing short stories and play videogames instead. merry xmas.


Last edited by Linus,

Spike Himself

TC

Quoted from djc

this thread should be retitled “An Effort in Taking Shit Way Too Fucking Seriously, authored by All of TF2’s biggest Spackers” holy shit guys

funny that, out of all people, you were the one to post this :D :D

Chicken George

Quoted from Linus

omg guys stop writing short stories and play videogames instead. merry xmas.

That’s called discussion, dude. merry xmas, though.

nfst

wai?

I thought the Christmas Cup suffered more from the new people who supposedly wanted to play not showing up, refusing to use a microphone or just blatantly trolling than from the lack of seasoned volunteers. Or that might just be a couple of anecdotes I heard from a some of people who tried to mentor a team.

It’s rather hard to try and help people who seem to lack any kind of initiative. [More than is needed to sign up for the cup, that is.] And this ruins it for the eager people who *do* join cups like these as an introduction to competitive tf2, as well as disheartening
the volunteers.

That said, if there are still some prizes needed for the Cup, I have some hats I’d love to give away.


Last edited by nfst,

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