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Created 24th August 2010 @ 16:02
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I think (and hope) most ppl would think of the bonk drink as better (and imo overpowered overall) compared to the pistol and even more after the update where it got a time recharge instead instead of the “slow down after” effect. The slow afterwards effect made it kinda shitty to just run in, get a good pos then battle it out cuz u could not move shit (except if u pressed left and right a lot ofc… But still hard to dogde).
Now u can just break a choke, take the most irritating position ever behind enemy lines and not to add loading up 6 shots for ur scatter gun and get heals. (not to mention to check stickies and have a free peak on where everyone is at the enemy team and if wanted and needed, take sentry fire).
Srly if u had two lame scouts actually used bonk every map that would be the most painful and fucked up game ever.
If u need examples i throw in some.
Last edited by Wiiking,
by the way Vali, I read ur hole first post and I cant rly see why you even posted this. U point of most of the wrongs and rights about the buff banner but never leh less… The negatives counters or makes the positive things just seem minor compared…
U all know that if the buff banner gets allowed it’s just gonna be the buff banner soldier spamming until he gets the fucking banner filled for fight (thinking espec granary) Then going in with uber, falling back then attack with buff banner.
TF2 is already slow and boring to watch as it is on most maps. Adding just another thing that would take ages (and close to impossible for the other team to calculate when they have it) would make the shitty to spectate meter just go even higher.
koth or gorge ftw.
Edit: Because tbh as much as a happy person could think buff banner adds shit. When ppl calc on a person actually using buff banner fuck ppl are gonna go defensive mode… not aggresive.
edit2: Arn’t some of your + actually missplaced for the – section?
“Minicrits? More like megacrits:” – Simply put, this is wrong
“The edge in uber vs uber:” – i explained above what’s gonna happen.
“Better at juggling than your local circus clown:” – This is already possible as a soldier without mini crits. Plus throwing out a comment like “oh noes I cant juggle this guy he flew away I did 122 dmg… But wait lol my demo is here, his stickies does like insane dmg now. Killing for example scouts with one hit, which we fought so hard to get rid of a year or two ago with sollies.”
Last edited by Wiiking,
how is attacking last while having minicrits against team that doesnt, called balance?
either tweak it same as crit cola( u receive minicrit dmg ) or this topic is for the luls :]
Last edited by AnimaL,
NO LIFE!
Last edited by Pandylo,
Well you say it’d slow the game down, but if anything it generally helps to break through stalemates. Plus the best counter to buff banner would be more aggressive play as defensive situations like stalemates favour the banner.
Sure, in a minor number of situations, like when a team using buff banner is attacking last, you probably want to play a bit more defensively and put yourself in situations where the enemy soldier can’t just build off of you and there would be times when falling out is better than just focusing the bannered soldier down.
It’s something though where if you have uber advantage it’s probably best to just push anyway (as tbh uber on no uber is more advantageous than uber on uber with banner) and situations of uber on uber usually stalemate until the attacking team gets a pick anyway.
Also, I don’t get how doing lots of damage is a downside? The fact that it can oneshot is a point I made in the -, but doing a lot of damage is definitely a very strong + of the banner and nowhere did I say that soldiers cannot juggle without buff banner, it just makes it incredibly easy (especially at longer ranges).
Eugh…
Addition of the buffbanner would add another side to the whole metagame, and while this has its advantages I personally don’t want it.
I’m on the fence about it to be honest.
I think instead of everyone sitting here whining about it like little children they should go out and try it then come back and make a valid and educated opinion.
As for me after using it in a pub for a couple of rounds to work out the mechanic’s I can say that it does actually take some effort to charge, not so much in the public but I can definitely see charging it up in a 6v6 game as something that would frankly require effort to do.
I think that a buff banner wouldn’t be overpowered if the enemy team knew it was being used, being aggressive against the soldier is a sure fire way to stop it’s effectiveness and I think that it would encourage more aggressive play because playing defensive would make it easier for the soldier to charge the banner.
But on the negative side of things once the banner is charged it is a very powerful tool and I personally think it last’s a little too long.
It also give’s another target to aim for which might seem like a good idea in theory but with the demoman being so important in tf2 we’d have three targets to try and pick off,
That’s HALF the enemy team that has way’s to wipe you out and getting picks on the medic and demoman are enough for a team to achieve, I think adding another target would just make the game a cluster ****.
I think if the buff banner was reduced to the same time as a uber or maybe a couple of seconds more as well as some visual change’s to allow us to see how charged it is then the banner would fit nicely into competitive play.
But unless that happen’s I think we should leave it out for the moment.
If maps are prown to stalemates, stop playing them. Don’t bring in shitlocks that change the game accross the board just because granary and whatever else suck ass yet no one has realised it yet.
I used to think some unlocks could be useful or add new strategy to the game, however 95% of the time since medic update, all the weapons have been either completely underpowered crap, overpowered crap, or underpowered crap with some annoying function that makes it overpowered in certain situations causing massive rage. A few are OK, but what’s really needed is to focus development on a handful of great 5CP maps similar to Badlands now that all the classes have been updated. There’s enough payload stuff for now.
Quoted from Azdean
I think if the buff banner was reduced to the same time as a uber or maybe a couple of seconds more as well as some visual change’s to allow us to see how charged it is then the banner would fit nicely into competitive play.
Buff banner lasts 2 seconds longer than ubercharge does, 10 seconds compared to 8, and the penalty for multi-ubering can widen that gap even further. It should probably get a slight nerf in that regard so that they last the same amount of time (without multi-ubering).
Most sollies work hard on their shotty and would not want to face a shotgunless career but the OP has convinced me that in certain situations it could be interesting to switch to rape banner. This of course with absolutely no playtest whatsoever in the long tradition of defending unfounded statements to the death. (err … in case it’s not clear I’m FOR it not against it)
Last edited by strut,
Bump.
I came across this thread after searching for why the Banner is disallowed, so im glad i found it. I agree with everything Vali has to say, hes really thought about the points he’s made.
To me it seems the two possible issues are:
– Theres no indication as to when the buff banner is ready
– The banner arguably deals a little too much damage
To fix the these points, do what Snowie said, “Ideally, the buff banner would start off inside the backpack and would gradually extend itself as it gets charged, then when fully charged the banner would crackle like the medic’s fully charged kritzkrieg. Or something like that. There’s still plenty of ways it could be tweaked even if it was too powerful in terms of damage output, like reducing the time depending on how many people are inside the radius (e.g. similar to swapping ubers between players reducing the overall time of an uber).”
We should remember that the competitive community has the power to modify the unlocks in this game with ease. Do you guys remember TFTrue? It was a mod to change the game for the competitive community, afaik the most recent modifications for tftrue was for the Direct Hit, removing minicrits on airbourne enemies (because spamming bouncing medics was completely fucked). Two days later Valve changed the DH to only minicrit on airbourne enemies due to explosions and tftrue was dropped.
Im sure a lot of you have contacts with Valves TF2 team, suggest these ideas to the team and im sure they’ll adopt it. If they dont adopt it, suggest that the ideas only come active when tournament mode is active. Alternatively Anakin could pretend to start up tftrue again and claim hes changed the Banner for comp play, then in two days time… Valve make the same changes themselves? ;)
Last edited by rezOnanceUK,
Quoted from Memento Mori
I used to think some unlocks could be useful or add new strategy to the game, however 95% of the time since medic update, all the weapons have been either completely underpowered crap, overpowered crap, or underpowered crap with some annoying function that makes it overpowered in certain situations causing massive rage. A few are OK, but what’s really needed is to focus development on a handful of great 5CP maps similar to Badlands now that all the classes have been updated. There’s enough payload stuff for now.
This. Except I never though unlocks (except medic and a few exceptions) were any good.
If something with a tradeoff is overpowered in certain situations, that shouldn’t make ban, that makes it situational.
I think Vali’s made a point that would need some evidence to be proven wrong- 600 is a lot of damage to rack up for one 6v6 soldier, especially without, of course, a shotgun, and I don’t think it’s a good idea for a pocket soldier to go groping around for damage with spam if he’ll have nothing to protect himself with after. Aside from the obvious lack of long-range peppering, because the soldier has to keep an even tighter hand on his ammo count, making ammo management even more of a necessary skill, he’ll have less damage available to put out quickly in a situation where his clip has run out. Basically, potentially lower damage output.
I don’t see the Buff Banner in its current state making everything come down in favor of the team with it. It’s hard to imagine a soldier doing 600 damage points of work in time for a roll immediately following taking mid. Giving the soldier a new toy and a role with renewed importance, which absolutely demands forethought, restraint and teamwork, just sounds incredibly sexy to me, and I wouldn’t even label myself a career soldier.
Not to make a point out of it, but I come from communities where the attitudes towards banning seem to be different from those in tf2’s community. Usually, I don’t see something being banned unless it’s pretty well proven to strongly overpower every other option available. A lot of tf2 seems to think, instead, that something new has to prove itself to be fun or substantial or interesting or etc enough to be worth playing with, but I’m not sure who gets to decide what’s worthy, exactly. It feels something like culture shock.
I think it’s worth reconsidering the buff banner in some serious capacity, and of course ask valve to at least make it plain that a soldier has the buff banner at all times, shorten its duration by a couple of seconds, and possibly giving it more significant startup, as suggested. I think the first point might more or less solve the last, though, since the opposing team would have a pretty loud 2-second warning along with knowing that the item was in play for a long time, even as the startup stands now.
but what do I know, I’m a yank.
Last edited by regweir,
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