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Most of the discussion is really pointless to be honest. The discussion should be about the FaN mechanics and if we should ban a weapon while it does not mess up the core 6v6 gameplay. Instead both parties keep taking turns telling that the other guy is stupid, doesn’t give arguments and that they will stop reacting after this post. I was surprised to see nobody had even bothered to check what the actual range on the knockback was.
So yeah, big wall of text incoming:

Personally, I don’t think the FaN should be banned since it does not really affect the core 6v6 mechanics in a negative way (like stunning ubers did). And I would hate to see the unlock banned since I like the diversity that the unlocks are adding. That said, I do think there are some balance problems with the weapon as well as some mechanics that aren’t optimal.

Because little was known about the actual mechanics of the FaN after it was updated I decided to run some tests to see how the mechanics work. The most important things I found are:

– The knockback effect itself is only applied within a certain range. Ingame the range would be a crate on granary(from one model standing on it to another).

– The knockback effect trows the target up vertically into the air for a few feet. This is unaffected by the amount of pellets that hit the target.

– Hitting a target with more pellets will push the target further away horizontally.

This is pretty much in line with the update notes from august 13 except for the last part:

The Force of Nature
– The enemy knockback now only works in close range and behaves more like the Pyro’s air blast
– Enemies cannot be juggled by the FaN’s effect
– The self-knockback has also changed to respect the firer’s view angle. Looking up while shooting will no longer propel the enemy upwards
– Knockback is now scaled by damage done

Doing more damage does result in pushing the target back for a few feet however it seems the important vertical knockback is mostly unaffected by the amount of pellets that hit a target.
In battles the horizontal knockback is hardly important since you want the target to be up close for your finishing shot.
The vertical knockback however is the same regardless of the amount of pellets hit, so you can hit 1 pellet and fully throw the opponent into the air. Once a player is thrown into the air it’s very easy for a skilled player to run towards the target and do a full damaging shot. This results in guaranteed kill in most situations.
So with the current mechanics shooting besides the target can knock the target up and set you up for the kill. However if you do a full hit you can risk shooting the target away from you, which can be counterproductive since you want to be up close for your finishing shot.
So the current mechanics certainly do not have a practical form of scaling.

A reason why I think a lot of players end up hating the FaN is that the easier 2shotting combined with the high firerate can leave players wondering what they could have done differently to survive. Due to the fast firerate of the FaN the chances of a scattergun scout battling close combat against a FaN are dependent on the other scout missing.
The tf2.com blog talked about this issue once:

Even worse was dying to someone who you couldn’t have engaged with, even if you chose to. In that case, you’re very unlikely to believe you could have done anything differently to survive.

So it’s safe to say the FaN does not exactly work like the patch notes say it should. Combined with the other characeristics of the Fan this has led to widespread hate against the FaN.

Still that does not mean I want to see it banned, the weapon might end up to be very strong at killing but it does not mess up the 6v6 mechanics itself. Instead, I’d rather see that valve will bring out another fix for the weapon so we can enjoy season6 with a balanced unlock that is truly a sidegrade.

Stuff I suggested:

– Apply the knockback effect only on the accurate bullet that follows the crosshair.

– Slowing down the firerate of the FaN and decreasing the reload time to compensate for loss of damage output.

– Scaled knockback depending on distance?

One idea is to change the knockback effect so it’s only applied with the bullet that goes straight over the crosshair. This would basically mean that knockback is only applied when aiming at the target. In comparison to the current mechanic the only thing that will change is that it wont be possible to knock people into the air when you didnt aim at them.
This is also much more favorable then making knockback dependent on pellets hit. It is much more reliable and more consistent because pellets have the random spread.

Another adjustment that might work is to make the firing speed of the FaN match that of the scattergun. And the reload time would be decreased in order to make sure the overall damage output remains roughly the same. According to tf2wiki’s stats this would mean that the fan’s speed would go up by 0.3 to 0.6 and the reloadtime would also go down by 0.3 making it about the same as the pistols reload time.
It could solve the frustration that the weapon causes while still keeping the power it has in 1v1 fights. And since most scouts dont always utilize the full firing speed it wont be that much of a nerf.

Dude dont quote beserker and vali like you know them or theyre on your side. I have actually heard beserkers arguments for not using the fan and theyre actually quite persuasive and very well reasoned. not persuasive enough imo and the counter argument is even more reasoned, but they are certainly better than your argument which consists of you not knowing how to counter it. beserker admits there are counters to the fan, plenty. So if you want to use the “there are no counters to the fan therefore ban it” argument then youre just embarrasing yourself. Even the people in your camp think youre talking rubbish.

I know exactly how berserker feels, because he and I both talked about the weapon and agree on the reasons why it is broken. The counter arguments have also been dismissed already (seems like you missed the old topic). You should stop posting here because you are just embarrasing yourself with your lack of understanding game mechanics.

The post above this one also shows that. Seems like you are playing a different game than I. Or maybe you just don’t play scout? Maybe you should read the old topic again, all the issues you raised here have been dealt with before.

Take note of Racio please, he does understand what is wrong with the weapon but he focuses more on the impact of it being broken.

If something is bugged, it doesnt automatically mean it’s gamebreaking.

Which is exactly what I said

If something is bugged, it doesnt automatically mean it’s gamebreaking.

Which is exactly what I said

I know but Koeitje seems to misunderstand you. I just wanted to clear that up.

Dude dont quote beserker and vali like you know them or theyre on your side. if you want a list of the counters to the fan then speak to beserker or vali, or the people you seem to think agree with you

The irony of this post, considering I don’t believe there is a viable counter to the FaN and you posting as if you know me while telling Koeitje not to do so. I mean seriously, the things that people state as “counters” to the FaN are simply ridiculous. Earlier on for example, telling you to follow him around a corner when he retreats for a reload. Saying to follow the fastest class in the game after he just hit you with a weapon that completely stops your movement. Auto-reload also takes away any delay in reload time, so it takes no additional skill to be reloaded as soon as possible, meaning that his reload time is going to be negligable once you can actually start moving again.

Racio, what do you consider game-breaking? Hitting the medic with a sandman (the thing which completely broke uber, not just stunned 1 potential ubered enemy) takes a lot more skill (and luck) than using the FaN and probably would happen a lot less than say a FaN scout juggling an enemy medic to stop him from retreating. If a weapon is bugged, I see no harm in banning it until it is fixed.

As for how to fix the FaN, I’m honestly at a loss. If you make it how it should work (knockback in the direction that you’re hitting them in) then it’s inferior to the scattergun because the second shot will be really far away. If you keep the vertical knockback, it’s still retardedly easy to use. I honestly don’t see how you can know that 1 pellet is enough to juggle them in the same way that hitting them skillfully in the feet with a rocket does and still claim that it’s not game-breaking.

part of the problem is that the people on the side of banning it just reiterate the arguments as to why fan scouts have an advantage. at no point have i disagreed that the fan scouts have some advantages. never.

what i dispute is that this advantage justifies it being completely banned. a VERY different point

just wanted to clarify that as much of this thread is taken up by people arguiing whether the fan is op or not. irrelevant. its why this advantage should result in a ban.

if i have been unclear in this position i apologise

a very objective argument =)

i like your point about people not liking change.

i imagine if the sticky launcher had been a second weapon launched after the release of the game, there would be loads of raging and a thread such as this rather unpleasant one