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Highlander Season 18 Preseason Cup Feedback
Created 15th February 2019 @ 21:54
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tl;dr I don’t think any of the maps tried in the cup are better than what we have currently.
Vigil is a decent map, maybe has potential, however there are a lot of issues across some of the points. On First there are some crazy sightlines (spamfest had a very good sentry placement that was passive but totally denied cart for most of the track). On Second you’re forced to go through one choke, which leads you to the high ground, while the cart runs directly underneath you through the tunnel. Setup correctly the defensive side has a huge bonus. From Second to Third, 75% of the track is free pushing time for the offensive team – there is no outlet for the defenders to even look at the cart due to the wall, and can only peek when the cart is through the tunnel. At that point, the cart is nearly capped already so it takes just one slightly favourable exchange to cap it out. From there, last point makes a few classes pointless – Sniper on defense can do nothing; they either hold passive and are ineffective or are aggressive on their right side and are easily picked off. You don’t have to pop Uber until the last second, due to not having to worry about a Sniper, and the huge cover afforded to you, and if you have disad as the defending team – you either get wiped, or have to rotate through spawn, and the right exit doesn’t allow you to defend last directly. Badwater is, alongside Upward, one of the best Payload maps around and the majority of the dislike is due to the third point. Since the Amby nerf Spies cannot snipe you from roof, and we saw a lot of easy pushes onto third in games in Season 17, so I think this criticism is unfounded.
Lakeside has been in and out of the map pool; people want it back and after a season or two complain about the huge Sniper sightlines and it gets removed again. It’s a decent map, but the question is, is it better than Warmtic/Coalplant. I’m not sure.
Alloy still has the same problems as it did years ago when we first tested it. Gravelpit was removed because people dislike the fact that you essentially gave up one point to prioritise the other, and Alloy suffers from this as well. If you try and hold both points – passively in the lobby – you end up having two weak defenses. It’s much easier to hard hold one, or neither – cos C is so easy to defend. The spawns for the defending team are still very fast, you can get huge picks but if you don’t cap within the next 5 seconds, those gamers are gonna be back in the action straight away, and able to help defend the point instantaneously. WCS had a great hold on their top right, where they had 7/8 of their team just holding there – they had 0 map control but still were able to defend the point. That shouldn’t be the case.
As for bans, I don’t know why Detonator or Spycicle were banned. I don’t think either are overpowered or broken and I’ve yet to see an argument that reasons why they were proposed to be removed. As for the Reserve Shooter, it’s definitely not as broken as it used to be, but I didn’t see it get used enough to warrant an opinion if I’m honest.
Badwater is better than Vigil by a long mile. All that CeeJaey has said about it is 100% on point & I expressed a similar point of view when the cup was announced, because I believe that replacing it with any of the maps tested is just adding salt to the already deep highlander wound.
The third point isn’t that hard to push, at least not anymore. And to all the spy mains complaining about the dispenser blocking the stairwell – don’t blame the map. If you’re that desperate for a chance to kill the engie just tell your soldier to whip you in boiler so that you could jump to the balcony: it will literally take you both less than one minute to learn how to do effectively and without getting spotted by the opposition, no matter what skill level you are.
I understand that this thread isn’t about badwater, but I don’t really care about any of these maps, only the one getting this undeserved shit, so forgive me my whining.
Peace.
Vigil creator needs to go back to the drawing board.
Not sure why alloy was even tested since nobody enjoyed playing on this map back then and without fixes people won’t change their opinion out of a sudden. Feels like it only took and wasted spot for other maps that have real potential to be played (vanguard?).
Lakeside it alright, but in my opinion it’s not better than warmtic. Warmtic allows for more variety and diversity comparing to lakeside. Again maybe some other map should be tested instead (highpass?).
Vigil shouldn’t be a replacement for badwater. Yes it has potential, yes it could bring something new and challenging for teams to learn how to play, but it looks like it’s not even finished yet properly with all those cliffs and unreasonable flanks that eighter noone will use or are cancerous to hold. Badwater is being complained at mostly because of 3rd point, and it’s true that in stock version it’s overpowered when fully set up, but that is why pro version exist and this should get in map pool instead.
(re-reposting in here, with a bit more detail)
Vigil
Vigil is a good map, people need to learn to play it, and experiment on it, find the strats, the niche spots and pacing of the map etc. It doesnt feel flawed, you can pull out some serious defense but attack is never being softlocked into oblivion, I feel like it has tons of potential and I really hope it makes it in. It would put people outside of their comfort zone too, everyone knows how to play the current maps in the map pool, having a new map would force people to adapt to new things which is in the first place one of my personal favorite things about competitive gaming, making up strats and trying them out. For the same reason I voted for gravelpit, I wasnt here to play it when it was in the map pool and am curious to know how it plays out.
Why vigil should -> imo <- replace badwater
I pretty much agree with 100% of what Adje said. Badwater and all its pro versions to me is like a kid born with a messed up leg. you can add all the rods, do all the surgeries to it, sure you'll be able to limp around and have decent mobility, you still wont be able to run in a competitive marathon in the end. And to those who say, then just play stock and its fine, why do you think the americans tried out 12 different versions of the orignal map? Because in the first place, it plays very poorly, and if there is one thing UGC does better than etf2l, its that they dont play any version of badwater (they may play other very stupid maps, some even worse than badwater but my point still stands). No matter how much you modify the map, it willl still be a pain to play, Adje already stated all the reasons but again let me quote them again here, beyond my personal grudge against the 3rd point and the map itself: insanely long walk between points, several chokes and positions way too much in favor of red, poor layout, only decent point is 1st, 2nd is mediocre, 3rd and 4th are trash tier. Vigil would definitely be an upgrade to it. However if I was to be forced to play this map, I'd go for the v12 version, simply because 3rd is slightly easier to play, you'd most likely still have to commit to a sentry and a sniper in a window and use super early then deal with a pyro / demo cleanup uber, but at least there spy can attempt some sort of play to drop the med, get the sniper or the gun etc, and not have to get whips to climb on a ledge that was not even originally designed for spy in the first place, or use DR boost and then be a sitting duck or get mugged by a pyro instantly. Most spies in the league are not prem level and able to pull off those plays consistently, keep that in mind.
tl;dr vigil good badwater bad
Lakeside
I dont think Lakeside should replace warmtic. most of us have played it at least in UGC, so we know the biggest issues with it. the map itself is quite bad, one gigantic sightline with no ammo whatsoever and a huge skybox. The map is also mirrored, which favors one team over the other compared to warmtic. Its not unplayable, but doesnt feel as competitively viable as warmtic by any means, and I'm not the biggest fan of warmtic, which presents several flaws, the dropdown is just dumb, however I'll take warmtic over lakeside anyday, it feels much smoother to play. But I think that what Ceejaey says outlines another problem, people ask for lakeside to be in and then complain about it and want it out of the map pool again. The way I see it, there isnt enough good koth maps to have 3 games of koth per season. What about replacing 1 koth map (I'd like warmtic out personally if that was to happen) and adding another cp map instead, gravelpit maybe, or even gorge after proper testing?
Alloy
Alloy is very flawed by design, defense is incredibly strong on it. My team won it by giving away A and B and then focusing on C. Rotating behind the point on C makes it unecessarily hard to push for blu as long as medic doesnt peek sightlines, which is also fairly easy since you have an entire hallway behind point to safely rotate around with no threats whatsoever, then all you have to to is play around uber%. You're on ad? rotate close, uber into them. Disad? play passive and play around your sniper, they have to cross him. if he dies, the C point is extremely spammable and easy to defend anyway, loose cannon is actually a legit strat here. I dont think it will ever be a good competitive map.
bans
µAs for the bans, again I agree with what adje said. either ban both spycicle and detonator or dont ban either. I would personally advocate for both to remain unbanned for it allows for more diverse plays, lets not ban every weapon because they change the meta ever so slightly when its already very stale as it is.
who cares about reserve shooter lul
anyways, this was all my personal thoughts and opinions, in the end the community will vote and decide for what they prefer.
Quoted from Big Papa MattJ
text
No, the americans tried 12 versions of badwater because they understood what a great map it is and did not want to cave in the vocal minority which primarily consisted of spy mains, who wanted it gone for their own selfish reasons.
You should read the old threads on UGC forums regarding the topic, unless they’d been deleted already. Some of the reasoning provided is just as hilarious as the one you brought up.
Long walks between points? Are you kidding me? Have you ever played Upward or Borneo? Or (Dear God, forgive me for even mentioning it) Swiftwater? Are you really suggesting that the distance between 2nd & 3rd on Badwater is longer than it is on Upward? Perhaps the 3rd & 4th? Come to think of it, I can’t really name a single payload map played competitively where distances between points are shorter than they are on Badwater. And I don’t even have to take out a ruler out to make that claim, because it’s that obvious.
Poor layout? Apart from some issues with lighting here & there (which are fixed in _pro version btw) I don’t really understand what you’re talking about.
It favors the red too much? Yeah, and? I don’t hear a problem with that at all. Every single payload map favors the defensive side, it’s kind of the whole point. That’s why Red usually has all the high ground and strong sniper sightlines. In fact, badwater last should de facto be much easier to push because it doesn’t have the high ground that is holdable and the only decent sniper positions are on each side of the spawn door, both of which could be denied from either maproom or window.
Ok, Badwater sucks, just remove it
@clark and surprisingly people who tend to defend the map are sniper mains demo mains and engineer mains :^) For the record I dont main spy anymore, if this is what you implied, I’ve been playing med for 4-5 seasons of etf2l / ugc now and I still think badwater is an awfully designed map, just because I can sit on my ass on 3rd top and do nothing but to uber my pyro and demo when they get bored enough to try and trade doesnt mean I think the map is fine now.
My team is also a big fan of defending, yet most of us (if not all of us) agree that badwater is bad.
The walk from blu’s first spawn to the holding area is definitely longer than walking from tunnel to house on upward. From then if you cap 3rd, going from house to the tracks is faster than even going from the (only) forward spawn to the last holding area on badwater. Borneo 3rd and last do suffer from the same “long distance walks” issue, which is why I did not mention it in the first place, I prefer it over badwater but its also very flawed so not worth mentioning it. I can name a competitive pl map with shorter walks tho: vigil.
By poor layout I meant overall trash map design, very choky, no real flank routes overall, favors demo spam wrangler and snipers way too much. Also the fact that when you spawn on red last, you either spawn on top or bottom seemingly randomly (if there is any logic behind the respawns please do let me know, I’d be interested to increase my smol brain) and that if you wanna commit to top and you spawn bottom, you cant just walk up like on pro, you have to spam a respawn bind to then get to top eventually, hopefully fast enough, then commit. its ridiculous. I poorly expressed myself in the original post on that point, I’ll give you that.
badwater doesnt have a high ground to hold on? 3rd is by far, maybe along borneo 3rd too actually, the biggest high ground to commit to in the entire map pool of (somewhat regularly played) highlander maps.
Lets review the different pushes on 3rd:
lets say red and blu are on equal ubers for the sake of it. For tracks, you need at least the sniper frag to walk in somewhat securely. Spies will not most of the time be able to get said frag because of the stairs dispenser, and even if they pull out the ninja jump to top, good luck navigating around everyone and then getting sniper. Not saying it has never been done but the level of difficulty is absurd. Theres a reason why apart from top high / prem you never see this play being pulled out. Your sniper would need to commit to either tracks for boiler for the sniper frag.
In boiler you can get spammed quite easily for almost no downsides from red, the only option is committing 2-3 players incnluding pyro to reflect spam in there, and putting their lives at risk for the next push. on tracks there is (at least) a wrangled gun, a scout,and potentially a spy too, its faster, but also riskier than boiler.
Ok so sniper is down, what to do next? to push boiler, unless you got the heavy pick somehow you will need to use out of boiler which leaves red a huge amount of time to counterpop and punish back, maybe even with conch. from tracks, unless you got the right frags early or red feeded before the push, you’ll have to use very early due to the spam potential , which again, (see previous point). No matter how much one can use and overuse the “get good” card, this to me seems objectively unbalanced. again, pro fixes some of these errors, but the map still suffers from the limpy kid with a bad leg syndrom.
As for committing to last, you may be dropping down on the low ground, the problem is that once you’re in, there is very little ways to go out if the push fails. Its most of the time an all in, which should never be the case. Of course a team should get punished for a poorly executed push, but here the design again fails the map, you drop down into a basin where people on red who died early will be able to recommit from top and take advantage of the free high ground. Even if you compare it to borneo last, if you fail a push, your med and some players could take advantage of a bit of cover and run away in time, but here there is no cover whatsoever, so if you do any slight mispay your med is sure to die, unless he chose to stay very passive, but then he puts his team at risk with a worse, less aggressive uber.
Now onto your last point. denying sniper from maproom (if he is on top right) implies walking people there into 1) a soldier (on yet another abusable high ground) and a potential heavy, and 2) well… a sniper sightline. If you were to get your heavy in to make space chances are he would get sniped or spammed to death either way. as for window, you have to win the tires fight to get there, and while its competely doable, you’re then exposed to spy, scout when he respawns etc. But tbh denying sniper here isnt as bad as the push itself, it can definitely be done easier than on 3rd as long as people are a bit careful.
Of course red should always be favored on payload, but here I hope I explained my points well enough for you to understand why I think it is more than favoring red, its downright unbalanced. I may also note that vigil does not suffer from any of the flaws stated above. you can still defend hard, but there are many flank routes and interesting plays blu can pull off to attempt to break the defense.
On a last note I want to add that, although I disagree with you and pretty much anyone that thinks badwater should remain in the map pool, I respect your opinion, and eventually the community will decide if they prefer vigil or badwater (or upward for a fact but lets be real its not gonna be out), not me or you or anyone debating the matter. All we can do is express our points and explain then to people, to influence them and make a change, as I’m doing it myself, I invite you to do the same.
This was my ultimate rant on badwater, did I earn my PhD in ranting yet?
Last edited by Big Papa MattJ,
Quoted from Big Papa MattJ
@clark and surprisingly people who tend to defend the map are sniper mains demo mains and engineer mains :^)
I’m all in favor of badwater_pro as I have already mentioned in the comment section to the newspost about the cup, so your assumption that I want to keep the map because it’s strong for my class is irrelevant as I’ve got nothing to gain from the switch, only the contrary.
Quoted from Big Papa MattJ
For the record I dont main spy anymore, if this is what you implied
I did not imply anything. I clearly stated who was behind the ultimate removal of badwater in NA. This has nothing to do with you and I didn’t even know you were once a spy main, but thank you for telling me that as some of your points make more sense now.
Quoted from Big Papa MattJ
The walk from blu’s first spawn to the holding area is definitely longer than walking from tunnel to house on upward.
Fixed in _pro version.
Quoted from Big Papa MattJ
From then if you cap 3rd, going from house to the tracks is faster than even going from the (only) forward spawn to the last holding area on badwater.
Only by a small margin, but ok.
Quoted from Big Papa MattJ
Borneo 3rd and last do suffer from the same “long distance walks” issue, which is why I did not mention it in the first place, I prefer it over badwater but its also very flawed so not worth mentioning it. I can name a competitive pl map with shorter walks tho: vigil.
Shorter walks from the spawn to the holding point does not automatically qualify a map to be better than some other. It also should be noted that exactly because the distance between the spawn and last is so short it’s incredibly easy to push out of last and spawn camp your opponent when you win a fight on red. In comparison, badwater has the same spawn times, but the most that the red can usually do when the win a fight is to push the corner and hold aggressively, even after a full wipe.
Quoted from Big Papa MattJ
By poor layout I meant overall trash map design, very choky, no real flank routes overall, favors demo spam wrangler and snipers way too much.
That’s just specifics of how the map works – there’s nothing wrong with that and every single map has different logistics strategies, and a part of your job as a team is to figure out the best routes for your players to move and rotate in. Luckily, you don’t even have to do that anymore, because prem teams have already figured out all the best possible moves (you’re welcome, by the way). So just rinse and repeat. And if you’re still not happy, deduce something on your own – that’s part of the fun.
If you want an example, Product is strong for snipers even more so than any other koth map in hl. So if the sniper goes to china, your reaction is to stick to the right side of the map and buff your own sniper on rock. It is not IDEAL and may very well not work, but that’s the route the vast majority is comfortable with and uses regularly. Badwater is no different in that sense whatsoever.
Quoted from Big Papa MattJ
Also the fact that when you spawn on red last, you either spawn on top or bottom seemingly randomly (if there is any logic behind the respawns please do let me know, I’d be interested to increase my smol brain) and that if you wanna commit to top and you spawn bottom, you cant just walk up like on pro, you have to spam a respawn bind to then get to top eventually, hopefully fast enough, then commit. its ridiculous. I poorly expressed myself in the original post on that point, I’ll give you that.
As you said, it’s fixed on the _pro version.
Quoted from Big Papa MattJ
badwater doesnt have a high ground to hold on? then text about how to play badwater
If you read what I said again, what you’ll see is: “That’s why Red usually has all the high ground and strong sniper sightlines.” And I actually used badwater last as an example, because it’s an exception, not the rule: “In fact, badwater last should de facto be much easier to push because it doesn’t have the high ground that is holdable and the only decent sniper positions are on each side of the spawn door, both of which could be denied from either maproom or window.”
So you’ve kind of proven my own point. Thank you again.
Quoted from Big Papa MattJ
Of course red should always be favored on payload, but here I hope I explained my points well enough for you to understand why I think it is more than favoring red, its downright unbalanced.
You didn’t.
Quoted from Big Papa MattJ
I may also note that vigil does not suffer from any of the flaws stated above.
Okay, now you’re just messing with me.
Quoted from Big Papa MattJ
you can still defend hard, but there are many flank routes and interesting plays blu can pull off to attempt to break the defense.
You’ve just described multiple ways of breaking the hold on badwater above, and I’m sure I could also add a couple.
Quoted from Big Papa MattJ
On a last note I want to add that, although I disagree with you and pretty much anyone that thinks badwater should remain in the map pool, I respect your opinion, and eventually the community will decide if they prefer vigil or badwater (or upward for a fact but lets be real its not gonna be out), not me or you or anyone debating the matter. All we can do is express our points and explain then to people, to influence them and make a change, as I’m doing it myself, I invite you to do the same.
Since you suggested we be real here, let me be real with you: if badwater or badwater_pro doesn’t make it into the final map pool that will be just another stone thrown at an already disfigured body, and I’m not exactly sure why anybody who isn’t a total psycho would want to do that.
I wont counter-quote all of this because it would only lead to an endless debate which would not yield anything productive.
I didnt know that you were advocating for badwater pro earlier on, I thought you were defending the stock version since it is the one currently used by etf2l. As much as I will hold my ground on my points and prefer the removal of badwater altogether, if badwater was to remain, I would also much prefer to see the latest pro version, its the lesser of two evils I guess. I myself stated a few times in my gigantic rant too that pro would be a slightly better option.
I would still add though, that as you stated, all the prem teams already figured out how to play the map etc, which brings me to a point I raised earlier, and that I also hear a lot of players use, not as much against badwater than in favor of new maps: vigil is a (relatively) fresh map, that hasnt been played all too much and as a consequence a lot of strats are yet to be discovered on it. At every level people will get to discover ways to hold and push, and that can only be good for the league’s health to my eyes, all the maps we’ve been playing for 3 or 4 seasons now are known inside and out by most players, I think it’s time for some change. Now subjectively, I’d take badwater out because of (insert rant), but some people did mention that they wanted upward out surprisingly, or more commonly warmtic and as I said in the end the community will prevail (btw if you read this thanks admins for listening to those who suggested an open poll for the maps). Mostly what I’d want overall is a new map. vigil didnt seem flawed at any moment when we played it against a team around our level, instead there were some very original strategies, improvised rotations and even kritz plays all around, without it degenerating into a memefest. The other 2 maps wouldnt be nearly as good were they to be implemented.
As for the spy part, I assumed you knew I used to main spy so it felt a bit personal, thats quite dumb from me, no bad blood intended, mea culpa o/
I did read all of your points though, thanks for taking the time to reply :)
Last edited by Big Papa MattJ,
I’m not advocating for badwater_pro, I am merely saying I’m not against it if the original gets a lesser rating than the _pro version in the voting poll.
I’m also all for injecting new maps into rotation as long as those new maps are superior to the ones we already have.
Vigil isn’t that bad a map actually, but it’s inferior to badwater in pretty much every way but some insignificant ones. And to suggest it doesn’t have flaws or that its flaws aren’t as apparent or as possibly result-defining as badwater’s is misguided.
I’ve already mentioned one reason for why it is so, but here are some more for you:
Vigil 1st is pretty much a free giveaway as there is no real holding space there apart from cliff which is far from ideal as there are no strong sniper sightlines available for either blue or red, and since hl meta is pretty much defined by the quality of the sniper sightlines the fact that this 1st point has none that are effective enough to be game-changing is very telling. In contrast, Badwater 1st has two that are effective for both teams (tunnel and rocks).
Vigil 2nd holding space is located on cliff, which is a high ground and on paper should be a good thing. But it has to be given up most of the time in defence since the sniper sightline for offence on that cliff is too powerful. Which in reality makes it a low ground hold with two flanks on each side – the tunnel and the slope – and only tunnel favors the defence, while the cliff and the slope make it too easy for the offence to push through – all of that is a big downgrade from Badwater 2nd straight up, because one has to remember: the roof on Badwater 2nd is only given up because of how strong the 3rd hold is. I personally don’t see many reasons why teams wouldn’t try holding 2nd on badwater_pro if given the opportunity since the sentry and the combo on the high ground as well as the close proximity of the spawn can allow for a very decent hold.
Vigil 3rd is holdable and is on the high ground, which is a good thing, but it has one massive flank that is located right in front of the defence, which if taken, creates too much space for the offence to run riot. There is also an underpass which creates a free entrance into the back lobby which could be used to sandvich the defence in seconds. I hope I don’t have to provide an explanation for why in this instance Badwater 3rd is superior :)
And here’s my biggest concern with vigil and why it’s much more inferior to badwater: the last point is a mess. It doesn’t favor either blue or red, it’s just a very confined room with a ledge that’s supposed to be a holding space, three flanks (the balcony, arc on main & right-hand side entrance towards the spawn) and no real choke (that little corner area on tracks is hardly a choke point, and could easily be confused as a 4th flank to anyone playing the map for the first time). The uber fight always happens either on balcony or in the spawn. The only time any fight ever happens on tracks is when the opposition is pushing it. How insane is that? And if you don’t believe me, watch literally any game from any division on that map’s last point. Fighting never happens on tracks, not even between flank players like scout & soldier (upward last is a good example of a combo holding upper while the flanks watch main where the cart is). It’s also almost impossible for any sniper fight to happen on tracks, because of how small the space is. The only real sniper sightline for both teams is the arc but it heavily favors the blue, and, frankly, I don’t understand how it’s not abused more often. Also, I’ve already mentioned that in the previous post, but if red wins the battle and wipes the enemy team they can spawncamp blue quite easily – so this last point definitely does not favor anyone, it’s just what you call it “poorly designed”.
If you look at badwater last, pushing is always a three-stage plan: you try to win the sniper battle, you then force the defence backwards towards their sentry hold, and finally you suicide to force the medic. Sometimes the stages are interchangeable, but they are always the same. What I find really interesting about this particular point and why badwater last is so unique in general is that you cannot win a battle for last unless you do all those three things. If red manages to hold choke aggressively not only can you not push the choke itself but your flanks become ineffective, because both maproom and tires are fully visible to red. All of this creates the incentive for the offence to be aggressive – not the other way around – to take risks, to make sure they force the opposition down under: exactly what payload should be like. And if you compare it to Vigil last – there’s simply zero incentive for blue to be aggressive, because the flanks are always open – without even having to fight for them. You can throw people in for sacrifices until you get enough picks and an uber advantage to then just walk into the spawn and camp until your flanks cap the cart. It’s not a three-stage plan, it’s a no-stage plan, which is why Vigil last along with every other point will never be as good as Badwater, ever.
https://imgur.com/a/s3dQLdM (all clark alone btw) epic gamer discussion
Didn’t play cup, but putting in my two cents.
1) I have never had fun on Vigil. Ever.
2) I find Alloy fun, but Steel is better.
3) Warmtic>Coalplant>Lakeside>Product
4) Ban/unban detonator+ice together.
Last edited by Harry,
the best fix for badwater would be making it similar to upward. attacking team gets forward spawn where the bunker is, when they cap 2nd. thats the only thing.. current pro version changes the map too much.
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