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Using logs for evidence of match score.
Created 18th November 2016 @ 00:56
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i’ve used printscreened logs.tf several times and posted them as scoreboard screenshot and everything went smoothly
Last edited by gedu,
Quoted from gedu
i’ve used printscreened logs.tf several times and posted them as scoreboard screenshot and everything went smoothly
you couldve posted a dick as scoreboard if the other teams verifies the result. You only ever need a scoreboard screenshot if the result isn’t verified by both teams.
Quoted from ash
I would love to be able to link a log in match result submission, so etf2l then grabs all the stuff from logs.tf – involved players, scores etc, including linking the log on the match page! What a time that would be.
I heard somebody is working on ETF2L backend as part of studies … maybe that somebody can try this!
That would be a great idea but in the meantime can the league revert to my suggestion for rule amendments in the OP, it will just save everybody bucketloads of time.
Personally I would prefer both screenshots to be replaced with logs, however if the game was played on a private server (not serveme) the logs could be edited before uploaded. Like if you used a different player you could replace their steamid with someone on your roster.
Also as I understand it the screenshot system is easier as it automatically flags games without screenshots, accepting logs would increase admin workload. Unless there’s a new way added to accept logs instead of screenshots, or you screenshot the logs.
Last edited by scrambled,
I can delete the logs I’ve uploaded to logs.tf but not the screenshots to etf2l. Would that mean logs would have to be rehosted here to avoid that after verification?
Quoted from Gubbins
I can delete the logs I’ve uploaded to logs.tf but not the screenshots to etf2l. Would that mean logs would have to be rehosted here to avoid that after verification?
If the match has been verified it wouldn’t matter.
Verification is confirmation by either the opponent or by a league admin confirming the match result is accurate and stands. Only in an act of fraud / dispute about the score would it be an issue, and if that is the case the admin / opponent should not be verifying the score.
Quoted from scrambled
Personally I would prefer both screenshots to be replaced with logs, however if the game was played on a private server (not serveme) the logs could be edited before uploaded. Like if you used a different player you could replace their steamid with someone on your roster.
Also as I understand it the screenshot system is easier as it automatically flags games without screenshots, accepting logs would increase admin workload. Unless there’s a new way added to accept logs instead of screenshots, or you screenshot the logs.
I think Kissakala explained this, but screenshots can be faked/edited as well.
To me it’s just over complicating things without adding anything worthwhile- We know most people are honest, we know disputes can be resolved easily if both parties bother to look at the results when submitted. On the one hand you want to take work away from the admins by requesting players submit results themselves and the opponent verifies it, but if they don’t do it you chase up both teams to submit proof that the score is genuine by adding warnings and prompting people to submit scoreboard screenshots which is a time consuming process for leaders.
Surely a better process is to just ask for the logs to be submitted by team leaders on the match comments and give the opponents responsibility to dispute the scores if they believe they are faked? I am sure 99% of cases aren’t like this anyway, but in that rare occasion someone does it, it would be flagged quickly (The admin who has the manually verify the results can do their checks for consistency, a process I can’t imagine taking more than 1 minute and if something is wrong, to go back to the team leader on the match page and request clarity – “Extra work”) and if it isn’t flagged by the opposition leader in time for the next week’s fixtures to be drawn, they will just get an easier opponent anyway, in the meantime you can hand out retrospective punishments. Personally I think this case would be so extremely rare, I could never see it happening. If it has happened please let me know and share details for examination.
I admit the backend of ETF2L was a lot easier to manually override inputs from matches in previous weeks when it was round robin (another good reason to go back).
And by all means keep everything else the same – The warnings, the need to upload screenshots just let us use logs.tf to evidence the score. I think every rationale given has been disproven and there are several positive reasons why the rule should be amended.
Last edited by Hildreth,
Quoted from Hildreth
[…]
If the match has been verified it wouldn’t matter.
Verification is confirmation by either the opponent or by a league admin confirming the match result is accurate and stands. Only in an act of fraud / dispute about the score would it be an issue, and if that is the case the admin / opponent should not be verifying the score.
That is not true. Even if the opponent verifies admins do as well. We usually Scim through the matchpage to see if there have been any demos requested etc.
Can’t see the issue with the screenshots. You literally tick a box and the game takes status and scoreboard ones automatically. When you close TF2 it shows you the screens automatically that you have been taking so you don’t have to look for them anywhere. I have a hard time to believe this takes so much effort
Last edited by DCS,
The key difference between logs and screenshots is that screenshots are clientside, logs are not.
The reason I’m focusing on logs being fakes is because if etf2l openly accept logs as proof of scores, people would then want logs to be used instead of status screenshots.
Quoted from DCS
Can’t see the issue with the screenshots.
It requires that you record every game you play on tf2. Also, just because the current system isn’t completely flawed doesn’t mean that it can’t be improved upon. I think accepting screenshots of logs for score screenshots wouldn’t be unreasonable and wouldn’t require any changes made to the website or the way that games are moderated.
Last edited by scrambled,
Quoted from DCS
[…]
That is not true. Even if the opponent verifies admins do as well. We usually Scim through the matchpage to see if there have been any demos requested etc.
Yes you’re checking to see if there is a match dispute, this is different from attempting to fraudulently submit results, in such an instance you would use Demo’s as your primary resource correct?
This process has nothing to do with the purpose of screenshots and if it did, would contradict this post made by a previous Head Admin:
Quoted from ash
[…]
you couldve posted a dick as scoreboard if the other teams verifies the result. You only ever need a scoreboard screenshot if the result isn’t verified by both teams.
Quoted from DCS
[…]
Can’t see the issue with the screenshots. You literally tick a box and the game takes status and scoreboard ones automatically. When you close TF2 it shows you the screens automatically that you have been taking so you don’t have to look for them anywhere. I have a hard time to believe this takes so much effort
Not disputing this isn’t much effort but people forget these things. As a leader on this website you’re already expected (by the league and by your teammates/opponents) to do the following in order to maintain a team on ETF2L and keep this league alive:
– Create a roster, put at least 6 people on the roster as per the many rules.
– Organise pcws with opponents,
– Organise your team on a day to day basis.
– Schedule matches to suit you and opponent the best.
– Ensure the server you use meets league standards for rules.
– Resolve any in-game disputes with the opponent, or contact admins to resolve them if dispute resolution not met.
– Manage the in-game server changes.
– Make sure status screenshots are taken.
– Make sure scoreboard screenshots are taken.
– Ensure you record a Demo.
– Submit results.
– Resolve any post match disputes with opponents (ie upload a Demo).
– Resolve any post match dispites with admins (ie – Scoreboard screenshots missing because you forgot to do them for 1 round after doing all of this).
You wonder why we have so few teams yet 100’s of teamless people LFT? This is a big reason why.
All I am asking is to make one of these processes slightly easier for the leader of the team. (The last one mainly). I won’t dispute that a lot of this is absolutely necessary especially with the limitations of ETF2L as a website, but certain things here can surely be changed to make life easier for team leaders. Hell I have even had to upload a scoreboard screenshot once for a game casted by BlackOut TV – Know how I submitted the evidence we won the game? I screencapped the cast, witnessed by a hundred people and probably one or two admins, tell me this isn’t completely pointless?
I haven’t seen a good argument to why we can’t change the rules as per my suggestion yet.
Quoted from scrambled
The reason I’m focusing on logs being fakes is because if etf2l openly accept logs as proof of scores, people would then want logs to be used instead of status screenshots.
It’s already been noted here that logs can’t be used as status screenshots due to operational shortcomings of the ETF2L website. People people ALREADY WANT IT (Ash, Kaja have said this), but we do not expect it because it’s not possible yet.
How accepting logs as status screenshots will change this I don’t know, when someone questions “why can’t we do it” there is an actual good explanation to why it can’t be done and the person asking would be satisfied with the answer, unless they were an unreasonable person in which case they can enjoy their minor warning.
And even in such a case, it isn’t really a convincing reason not to allow logs for scoreboard screens.
Yeah some good points being brought up here great discussion guys. Just gonna post this so people who are new to ETF2L can understand how logs work and how they could be used as evidence of a match score so here is an example of a game.
Now as you can see on the log here BLU team won 5-2 as you can see at the top. Also the interesting thing about logs is they also show the stats of how a player preformed. Now notice how to the right of every player you have kills deaths and damage. Well as you can see on this particular log I am tagged up as “sheepy” on red team and got 34 kills and 19 deaths and got 7767 damage, thats 2 more damage than what kaidus got! what a noob getting outdamaged by a scout but I don’t blame him I am the 3rd best scout after all. Now notice on BLU team the Australian sheep who is tagged up as 5hp gets 29 kills and 18 deaths and does 7529 damage which if you break it down by hovering over the scout and sniper icons shows he got 22 kills and 4387 damage on scout in 18 minutes and 3142 damage and 7 kills on sniper in 12 minutes. Which means that compared to the australian “sheep” I got a better K/D, better damage all the while taking less heals on a team losing 5-2. You can really learn a lot about logs.
How big of an issue is this? Has there been a flurry of games where no screenshots were taken, but logs were submitted as evidence, but then refused? I’m not sure why you’re pushing so hard for this.
I think if logs are submitted as proof of a match result, and verified by the opposing team (i.e. not an admin), then admins could maybe be more lenient with missing screenshot warnings. If an admin has to verify the logs though, then I don’t think it’s better than screenshots. Checking steamIDs on logs.tf is more time-consuming than parsing a status screenshot, so I don’t think there’s an overall gain from using logs over/instead of screenshots.
Quoted from Crasp
How big of an issue is this? Has there been a flurry of games where no screenshots were taken, but logs were submitted as evidence, but then refused? I’m not sure why you’re pushing so hard for this.
I think if logs are submitted as proof of a match result, and verified by the opposing team (i.e. not an admin), then admins could maybe be more lenient with missing screenshot warnings. If an admin has to verify the logs though, then I don’t think it’s better than screenshots. Checking steamIDs on logs.tf is more time-consuming than parsing a status screenshot, so I don’t think there’s an overall gain from using logs over/instead of screenshots.
I don’t think you’ve read the thread or understood it, I explained the benefits several times, and what is and isn’t possible. Re-read it then come back to me.
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