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Hello,

I like others am curious to why ETF2L won’t allow the use of logs from the website logs.tf as proof that a score is valid and verifiable. I understand if you submit screens correctly often it results in less work for admins, but when I see teams given Minor warnings, admins spending ages bugging people to upload scoreboard screenshots and then people having to spend time going back on their Demo to take screenshots and upload them it seems like such a trivial waste of time when we have a resource kindly made by Zoob for our community that instantly captures scores of each game / golden cap.

I think keep everything how it is, the same rules and punishments but just allow logs as a supplement to submitting scores. Let people post the logs instead of uploading the logs. My only issue I see here is the manual verification an admin has to do with missing screenshots, it has been a few years since I have seen the backend but spending 10 seconds to look at some logs (assuming their opponent has not verified the result) is better than spending time chasing people to upload it, threaten punishments for not doing so and causing people to spend time manually submitting them.

Though I would agree, remembering to take them is the best way however people forget these things, it happens and both admins and players spend precious time following this up despite the fact that the purpose of the rule is to ensure teams don’t submit fake results and try to cheat their opponents and also so admins can verify the correct score is given so that the correct points are allocated. I think the resource of logs.tf is the solution to this to make life easier, it gives you all the information you need to evidence the score and provides no less danger to potential fraud or deceit than an ordinary screenshot would.

The rule reads:

3.2 Status & Scoreboard screenshots required

One member of each team has to take a status screenshot before a match is starting and after every player switch. A screenshot of the final score has to be taken at the end of every map/round. Please note that a scoreboard screenshot is not sufficient for all attack/defense maps as it does not show the winner – the screenshot explicitly declaring one team to be the winner is required instead. Screenshots can be uploaded while submitting the result or by either team leader at a later date.

If any map screenshots are missing after the match’s result deadline, and the result has not been verified by the teams, both teams will receive a minor warning. Missing status screenshots will be punished with a minor warning even if the teams verify the result. The second violation of this rule will be punished with a major warning.

Warnings for missing screenshots can be removed by providing the missing screenshot and contacting an admin afterwards.

I propose keeping the wording except for editing the bold part to something like “Evidence of the match score must be recorded when submitting results, this can be done either using our internal Screenshot uploader or by posting a hyperlink to a Third party website that provides appropriate information linking to the match, such as Logs.tf.”

To summarize:

– The rules remain the same.
– It becomes a much simpler process to verify match scores, mainly for the player.
– It saves both admins and players time.
– Payload maps and A/D maps like Steel will still require screenshots when necessary as logs will not be sufficient.
– The screenshot option is still there for players to use.
– STATUS SCREENSHOTS STILL REQUIRED (as we know the website is not able to read logs and automatically match registered players profiles from logs.tf).

Thank you for reading.

On a more controversial note I would think the screenshot rule is redundant to a point where we have so many Premiership level games casted and every game requires an STV demo uploaded that needing screenshots as there is so much evidence readily available for people to use and when submitting scores, it’s so unlikely a Premiership team will dispute a scoreline. I would think amending the process in which results are submitted is the way forward, but we shall take small steps.

Quoted from MoistPenguin

As for why we require in game screenshots rather than logs is that it is much harder to fake a screenshot than a log file. Which given the effort people have gone into faking screenshots would almost certainly happen.

What? Much harder? You literally need 3 people and modify host_timescale and you’re done within minutes. Let me give you an example:

http://etf2l.org/wp-content/uploads/screenshots/2016/11/582e2a3c8ec60.jpg

This is from a premiership playoff game. It doesn’t include ANY critical information on the following

– WHO actually are on the server
– WHAT they have done on the server (dmg, heals, etc.)
– WHEN the game happened

Logs.tf has all these. Links to player profiles. Damages, heals, caps. When the game was played.

Obviously, logs shouldn’t be taken as 100% evidence of the game happening like shown in a log, but then again screenshots aren’t either (I really hope). That’s why there’s the score verification system.

Uploading/posting logs would be a time saver and more convenient for everyone, the uploader and the admins, and I’m surprised it’s taken this long that anyone asked why it’s not in place already.

Quoted from Bloodis

[…]

I didn’t know 3 people can make that many different names in the killfeed there, that’s pretty impressive if I do say so myself.

The killfeed wouldn’t have to be there for the screenshot to be equally valid, and I know you know that.

Can’t you see the order of defence/attack on logs too? I’m fairly sure this is the case, in which case logs.tf would still be just as good for stopwatch.
Even if it doesn’t, I recall seeing screenshots of the scoreboard (instead of the winning screen) after the game with a result like 4-4, which doesn’t exactly say who won (aside from team colors). How is this any more valid than a log?

Edit: here’s an example http://etf2l.org/wp-content/uploads/screenshots/2016/11/582e1b906ba70.jpg

Quoted from Kissakala

Edit: here’s an example http://etf2l.org/wp-content/uploads/screenshots/2016/11/582e1b906ba70.jpg

Results probably got verified and as a result the scoreboard screenshot becomes irrelevant.

While logs are great and all you’ll always have to get the status screenshot in the current system. So getting a scoreboard screenshot in case there is a potential argument isn’t that much of extra effort. And splitting up where we need to go to check for verifying matches as admins just seems like a stupid option.
Unless if there is an actual issue with screenshots there is no reason to switch off of them.

Quoted from ondkaja

1. a team submits the scores and the status screenshot (or logs if it’s possible to check its validty e.g. if it was autouploaded).

I looked into that at some point and there wasn’t a way to check who the uploader was through the api.

Quoted from ondkaja

[…]
2. the results get automatically verified (maybe after 24 hours or something).
3. if there’s a dispute, the team contacts the admin with demos and logs from the game within 24 hours, and the result gets corrected. if it shown that the result was faked with malicious intent, then the offending team gets punished.

less work for users, less work for admins as they don’t have to verify every single match, they only have to deal with the edge cases, which they would have to do anyway. 99% of the matches probably have correct point distribution so why bother doing all this extra work.

That doesnt actually change a lot from the current system. All results that have been verified by both team leaders get accepted Friday morning unless if there is an complaint regarding it. Handing out warnings for missing scoreboard screenshots just brings attention to the matter and helps us notice if something about the match seems wrong.
Teams can always upload the scoreboard screenshots at a later time, seeing that they can get them from demos, and have their warning removed 95% of the time. The warnings for scoreboard screenshots are always minors so unless if you start getting a lot of them they wont affect you in the season.

Quoted from Aoshi

[…]

I looked into that at some point and there wasn’t a way to check who the uploader was through the api.

[…]

That doesnt actually change a lot from the current system. All results that have been verified by both team leaders get accepted Friday morning unless if there is an complaint regarding it. Handing out warnings for missing scoreboard screenshots just brings attention to the matter and helps us notice if something about the match seems wrong.
Teams can always upload the scoreboard screenshots at a later time, seeing that they can get them from demos, and have their warning removed 95% of the time. The warnings for scoreboard screenshots are always minors so unless if you start getting a lot of them they wont affect you in the season.

Why not wait for a complaint to arise before applying warnings for missing screenshots? This is not a critique I just want to realise the rationale behind this process. Otherwise there is little point in uploading scoreboard screens.

Quoted from Bloodis

[…]

I didn’t know 3 people can make that many different names in the killfeed there, that’s pretty impressive if I do say so myself.

My input to this topic is that if we would start to accept logs alone for 5CP and KOTH maps instead of screenshots, people would expect us to follow the same leniency for any map, especially ones that play specifically under the stopwatch config instead of points.

Re read my post see the section under rules I amended, I have covered this. PL and AD account for less than 20% of all games played on etf2l currently anyway. I do not think people will expect any different if the logs cannot evidence the fact.

I would love to be able to link a log in match result submission, so etf2l then grabs all the stuff from logs.tf – involved players, scores etc, including linking the log on the match page! What a time that would be.

I heard somebody is working on ETF2L backend as part of studies … maybe that somebody can try this!