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[ETF2L] Swiss Style Tournament System
Created 13th November 2014 @ 00:57
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Yeah, circumstances have changed, maybe it’s time for you to leave your position as Head Admin?
Come back Crasp :(
Last edited by caeli,
Quoted from Casino
It’s an interesting idea but I don’t like the idea of there being no bonus points for GCs. I don’t think it’s fair for a team to lose all 3 points on a map when the game is that close.
Please tell me why one team deserves a bonus point for losing more slowly. Why are we rewarding failure.
The benefit that you earn from taking a map to a draw after 30 minutes is that you get one last chance to win it in a golden cap, not that you get free points.
To see golden cap points disappear would be a great thing indeed. Don’t need to reward people for parking the bus for a “I guess you tried and that’s what counts” point.
I can see this really benefiting the lower divisions not just for prizes but for an actual enjoyment of playing teams on your level. You could be in Div 6 and 5 and then there’s like 3 slightly more experienced teams demolishing you, as much as there always has to be a loser, at least after a few weeks you’d end up playing people on the same level.
I also personally find it fun competing within your own “bracket” in UGC so in the lower divs there for Highlander at least you see, oh these guys are the top of steel or silver or whatever they’re on our level let’s try and get 3rd place so even though there’s no reward it’s still competitive for placement.
A couple questions though…
If implemented would it only be applied to 6s?
Will it change to a 1 map per week basis like UGC/ESEA? (I think) Edit: I mean as in play Badlands best of 2 halves rather than play Badlands and Viaduct
If it changed to 1 map per week would it extend the season’s length?
You mentioned ETF2L doesn’t have the funds to pay somebody to change the site and nobody wants to develop it, but if it was something that got voted in or whatever, would you do a fundraiser or do you have another solution in mind?
How would playoffs work with the swiss system? In UGC it can extend the season from like 9 weeks to 12 or 13, I can’t remember.
Last edited by Tomu,
Quoted from TaylorSwiftFan100
I love the Swiss system. It’s giving you really nice feedback about your skill every time and you get much more intresting matches. Works really nice for 1 day tournaments or things were you only got 1 guy playing.
But I don’t think it could work here. It’s hell to schedule anything already with 12 people playing and 1 week time for it. Idk how they handel it in ESEA/CEVO/UGC but what happens if a team just doesn’t schedule or knows the opponents can’t play on the default play date? To me that sounds like there could be quite a few retarded moves to get a few defwins.
Yeah those teams that are more organised are only here to fuck over the less organised or more unlucky teams that miss people and don’t have any backups. ABOLISH THE SYSTEM ITS ALL OVER BOYS.
Just because ETF2L has always had wildcards and a catch up week doesn’t mean it’s a necessity. You get given default days to play your game if you don’t organise it regardless, it’s just going to shorten that time window you have. It’s not the end of the world nor much of a negative of the system.
Quoted from Tomu
[…]
Yeah those teams that are more organised are only here to fuck over the less organised or more unlucky teams that miss people and don’t have any backups. ABOLISH THE SYSTEM ITS ALL OVER BOYS.
Just because ETF2L has always had wildcards and a catch up week doesn’t mean it’s a necessity. You get given default days to play your game if you don’t organise it regardless, it’s just going to shorten that time window you have. It’s not the end of the world nor much of a negative of the system.
I don’t think you understood me correctly. Ofc you have to organise, but you can still get fucked, for example this season I added b0nes from clanda as their only leader, he didnt have internet to schedule and the rest of his team just told me to fuck off they don’t want to deal with that. Now I get a default date i can’t get a full roster on. Doesn’t seem like i was the unorganised.
Not to bash clanda ofc or anything we got a solution and b0nes was very kind but this kinda situations can happen and if esp in lower divs some people are fucking assholes or just not really into sportsmanship.
You wouldn’t have individual default dates too which makes this even more likely. If someone can’t play Monday (random example), and it’s always the default date. Then you have to rely on the mercy of your opponents to reschedule the match. Not very cool imo and if i imagine this div5 highlander seaoson I’m playing with even less time to schedule and everything it sounds like a real nightmare
Last edited by TaylorSwiftFan100,
Quoted from caeli
Yeah, circumstances have changed, maybe it’s time for you to leave your position as Head Admin?
Come back Crasp :(
So nice you’ve stuck around <3
Quoted from Tomu
A couple questions though…
If implemented would it only be applied to 6s?
Will it change to a 1 map per week basis like UGC/ESEA? (I think) Edit: I mean as in play Badlands best of 2 halves rather than play Badlands and Viaduct
If it changed to 1 map per week would it extend the season's length?
You mentioned ETF2L doesn't have the funds to pay somebody to change the site and nobody wants to develop it, but if it was something that got voted in or whatever, would you do a fundraiser or do you have another solution in mind?
How would playoffs work with the swiss system? In UGC it can extend the season from like 9 weeks to 12 or 13, I can't remember.
It would give us the option to use both the swiss system and the current classic system. I can't see any reasoning for using the swiss for 6s and not for highlander though. So both most likely.
It could or it could not, we're not sure yet. If we adopted 1 map per week we'd most likely have to switch to some similar to NA, since playing 1 map per week at 30 minutes isn't really enough.
There are currently 7 maps in the pool played twice each, playing 1 map per week would simply mean each map is played once (maybe with one or two maps twice – UGC regular season is 8 weeks). So this swiss system may increase the length of the season slightly, but playing 1 map per week wouldn't affect it in any way.
I think I mentioned in the other thread, last time I talked to one of our coders they were busy and did not have the time, after posting I checked again and they were up for it. It may require a fundraiser to employ him full time if we wanted it done before Season 20, otherwise it can be done as a volunteer (as per normal) but much slower, perhaps for Season 21 perhaps later.
It would probably work the same way as UGC/ESEA where the top x (4/8/16) teams are placed into playoffs. Most likely 1st vs 16th, 2nd vs 15th etc straight knockout. Potentially it would be different for the highest tier since there are 4 teams, but I'm just throwing out thoughts right now. So yeah if you count playoffs as part of the season it'd be another couple weeks on the end.
I don’t see why everyone would have to change to the swiss style tournament system.
Apply it to div 6 only.
just wanna say that i think kaneco’s argument is like inherently invalid. the division system right now means that top div3 means you could compete in top div2 etc. that’s diluting the skill tiers if anything. a swiss system would mean you play everyone, and your skill would be more accurately represented, not by your division but by your record
I’ve wanted playoffs for lower divs for ages. That alone might solve the problem. The winners medals should only go to the playoff winner btw.
But for 3 big divs, if Open is d4-6 that’s around 240 teams, you don’t have to use the rigidity of the Swiss system. Any system where a team could defeat the seeding and go from last to first is a candidate. Could use a modified ladder system with playoffs where teams get between 4-10 games, for example. I’mna run some simulations.
There’s a potential issue in relation to one of the benefits that I failed to previously raise which is that draws make things complicated and the current ETF2L format allows weeks to be split 3-3 because maps are scored separately. There’s 2 ways of dealing with this:
1) Adopt a system that prevents draws, each week must have a clear winner. This is a big change and not popular
2) Adopt a points system instead of counting win/loss, 2 for a win, 1 for a draw, 0 for a loss, and then make future pairings amongst teams with the closest points totals. This is really similar to the current league system and should work fine.
You lose one of the advantages which is a guaranteed clear winner in a small number of rounds but tie breaks or a playoff will settle it anyway.
Also the points system could be modified to allow bonus/penalty points for GC situations, so 4 for a clear win, 3 for GC win, 2 for draw, 1 for GC loss, 0 for straight up loss, or it could be done the current way with up to 6 points for 2 clear wins. It doesn’t make much difference.
@Kaneco, in terms of meaningful skill tiers, the end rankings in a Swiss tournament are recognised to be one of the most accurate skill measurement methods available, it just takes a while to get there. Low teams get a shot at the big boys early but without the penalty of certain elimination. Teams that stack in lower divs will be pushed higher up the tree to their true level, teams that troll in middle divs will sink to the bottom. Teams with potential who want to keen it up can jump several skill tiers in one go if their results earn it.
The biggest change is being uncompromising on the schedule, but because your next fixture is based on your record there’s no real answer to that.
Last edited by Gentleman Jon,
Quoted from Kaneco
[…]
Also its completely pointless. It removes merit and a certain prestige from the players, its not the same thing, it also dilutes the “skill tiers” a lot more. The thread in question was actually created because of that issue, a huge skill disparity in div6. This system will make it even worse. You will have a skill tier comprised of basically 3-4 divs.
In Swiss-system competitors are paired based on approximately how well they have performed so far. After a randomly assigned first round, teams will be playing teams with similar stats, therefore teams in lower divs might have a better time playing.
Additionally, winning a div will gain a lot more meaning, with the system we use right now everyone could get lucky (or not) and slip in an easy (hard) bracket which creates a wrong picture of one’s skill level.
Quoted from Admirable
Please tell me why one team deserves a bonus point for losing more slowly. Why are we rewarding failure.
It’s a compromise between having drawn maps or not, why play a golden cap at all when 2 teams fight to a standstill in normal time? Why should teams that have earned the draw then be punished just for the spectacle of the decisive round in largely meaningless league games?
In a Swiss system it makes sense to reward a team that does well but loses because it’s a more accurate reflection of their skill level for the next round.
Quoted from sorsa
What’s the problem with your current system anyways? Looks fine to me.
It’s hard to make balanced divs in lower divisions.
Quoted from Hallow
just wanna say that i think kaneco’s argument is like inherently invalid. the division system right now means that top div3 means you could compete in top div2 etc. that’s diluting the skill tiers if anything. a swiss system would mean you play everyone, and your skill would be more accurately represented, not by your division but by your record
No, your argument is inherently invalid.
What you’re telling me is that a system with 4-5 official skill tiers is gonna be more representative of skill level than a system with 1 official skill tier, thats like saying 1 > 5, it doesn’t make any sense.
Now if you told me that, during the the season you would progressively face opponents closer to your skill level I could get that, but what you’re implying doesnt make any sense.
Even so, my experience says otherwise. I played already 4-5 seasons of UGC and I have had way better experiences and closer matches in etf2l hl season than UGC. Hell, even this week we (as a 2-5 team in Plat) faced a team going 6-1 on Plat, it was a complete roll and we’re almost finishing the season, yeah, makes perfect sense, really illustrates the efficiency of the swiss system.
Quoted from letto
[…]
In Swiss-system competitors are paired based on approximately how well they have performed so far. After a randomly assigned first round, teams will be playing teams with similar stats, therefore teams in lower divs might have a better time playing.
Additionally, winning a div will gain a lot more meaning, with the system we use right now everyone could get lucky (or not) and slip in an easy (hard) bracket which creates a wrong picture of one’s skill level.
Im not dumb, I know how the swiss system works, it still doesn’t convince me in the least
I genuinely don’t know why was this issue even raised, you’re directing your efforts into a completely pointless thing that is working fine as is, meanwhile other aspects of the league/organization are a fuckin joke for a league this big.
That’s where you should be directing your efforts, not some pointless alternative league system that is magically gonna fix everything (when actually it will even make matters worse, it’s completely horrible in terms of scheduling and preparing matches)
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