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Quoted from Kaneco

I have been registered here for more than 2 years, despite only really being active the past few months I have already seen this debate countless times, I don’t need to do that research, I am using a current topic for the discussion of it, would you mind not going down the insult alley?

If you don’t want to research the topic of the debate you want to participate in then how can you hope to add anything intresting.

I don’t use write essays, but when I do I drop truth bombs:

Quoted from Kaneco

This is completely different if the unlocks allowed are sidegrades instead of direct upgrades from vanilla. Equalizer is a direct upgrade, but boston basher, gunboats, overdose, pain train are all side grades and valid ones at that, with balanced advantages/disadvantages from the vanilla ones. I can’t see why sidegrade unlocks shouldn’t bee allowed

Every single one of those unlocks has been proven to be a direct upgrade from the fact that they are all consistently used by the top NA competitive teams. The Gunboats perhaps is a stylistic choice for the Roamer, but you can be guaranteed that at least one Scout will be running Boston Basher and the Demoman will be running Paintrain.

I feel you are asking the wrong question; you want to know why these unlocks are not allowed without considering why should they be allowed?

Can you tell me why a scout should be able to build uber? Is it not enough that he is the nimblest class, can two shot most classes and caps at double the rate?

Why should a medic with more ubercharge deserve to run faster? Are his positioning errors more forgivable that a medic without uber?

The soldier is the most rounded class in the game, the only class packing splash and hitscan weapons, with the second largest HP stack and the ability to cover large distances in an instant through rocket jumping. Why should they be given the lifeline of the Equalizer for failing?

A buffed soldier can already do two rocket jumps and land on a target with full health? Why do they need to have self-damage reduced?

Why should the demoman be given a 2x capping bonus that was an exclusive trait of the scout for an irrelevant increase in hitscan damage taken (they are still going to get two shot by scouts). Is it not enough that they already have the highest damage output, the longest jump range and lawlstickies?

Quoted from Kaneco

Besides, you are complaining about being forced to use the equalizer to match the opposite team, that’s hardly a bad thing, I would think it’s good to be forced to use the equalizer (as a soldier) as it’s a direct upgrade from vanilla, despite the matter of being balanced or not.

Surely this is contrary to the pro-unlocks argument we hear about more variety? The reality is that the best unlocks will be identified over time and henceforth used consistently by all serious players. So in effect what you are doing is shifting the goal posts and attempting to rebalance the game with the band aid of unlocks, despite the fact that the majority of EU players have been happy with the game under the balance that class limits have offered.

You speak to the merits of the NA playstyle and come to the conclusion that unlocks are the cause, even when historically they have always favoured a much more aggressive, soldier-centric playstyle to their EU counterparts.

Quoted from Kaneco

I have been registered here for more than 2 years, despite only really being active the past few months I have already seen this debate countless times, I don’t need to do that research, I am using a current topic for the discussion of it, would you mind not going down the insult alley?

Jesus christ, sometimes this community really reminds me of the LOL community and how much I will never play that game

Eledorian gives you some candid advice and calls you up on the foolishness of the arguments you present, which seems like a measured response to what I have read from you thus far, but your reaction is a dismissive, defensive stance.

You seem to think that it is we who are all in denial, but you fail to offer a solid objective argument. It seems you are getting wrapped up in your own beliefs, so convinced that you are offering some profound enlightenment that we all just can’t see.

Quoted from Admirable

Every single one of those unlocks has been proven to be a direct upgrade from the fact that they are all consistently used by the top NA competitive teams.

Argumentum ad populum, just because it’s used by most NA teams doesn’t make them better than their vanilla counterparts.

Quoted from Admirable

The Gunboats perhaps is a stylistic choice for the Roamer, but you can be guaranteed that at least one Scout will be running Boston Basher and the Demoman will be running Paintrain.

Being the gunboats a stylistic choice, I think it’s the best example of a good balanced sidegrade. That’s one to think about, okay it allows for more aggressive and bold bombs, but you never get to use the hitscan finisher, and best chance you will have 1-2 rockets left after the jump, and if your team allows a bombing gunboats soldier to charge 1 more rocket after they bomb then something is wrong.

I consider the boston basher another good sidegrade, the way it currently is,, it doesn’t allow for the melee finisher unless you have plenty of health or complete certain you are going to hit. The uber building and some extra jumps make up for that, in my mind I see that as a balanced sidegrade.

Quoted from Admirable

I feel you are asking the wrong question; you want to know why these unlocks are not allowed without considering why should they be allowed?

They should be allowed as long as they are balanced sidegrades, at least that’s my view on it, and I reckon there are plenty of balanced sidegrades in the game and I can’t believe how they aren’t allowed.

Quoted from Admirable

Can you tell me why a scout should be able to build uber? Is it not enough that he is the nimblest class, can two shot most classes and caps at double the rate?

Can two shot most classes if you have some godly aim, no top scout will be running around 2 shotting every enemy he will cross. The uber building just adds another element to the game and if anything it increases the game pace, and an increased game pace makes for a much more interesting game.

Quoted from Admirable

Why should a medic with more ubercharge deserve to run faster? Are his positioning errors more forgivable that a medic without uber?

I feel you are asking the wrong question here too. You are presenting every argument as why should it be able to, as if it didn’t deserve to or wasn’t intended to. And then you answer your own question as if every unlock is a crutch to bad game sense or positioning errors.

Sidegrades are not a crutch, they don’t protect the player from their errors, they give the player an advantage in an area it didn’t have otherwise and leave the player with a disadvantage it wouldn’t have otherwise. If you don’t think the 10% damage penalty is enought of a disadvantage to compliment the increased speed (which only gets to the maximum on full uber) then I don’t know what would be a balanced disadvantage.

If anything sidegrade unlocks allow for a more personalized gamestyle for each player, making the game more interesting for the player.

Quoted from Admirable

The soldier is the most rounded class in the game, the only class packing splash and hitscan weapons, with the second largest HP stack and the ability to cover large distances in an instant through rocket jumping. Why should they be given the lifeline of the Equalizer for failing?

You didn’t read my previous post, I noted the equalizer was one of the unlocks I considered a clearly upgrade from vanilla and not a sidegrade, and valve has updated the tf2 beta with some nerfs to it, let’s wait and see, but anyway, I feel the equalizer was how the soldier was meant to be played, it’s not a balanced weapon compared to the vanilla counterpart but it’s a lot of fun. But maybe not good for leagues until it get’s a little nerf.

Quoted from Admirable

A buffed soldier can already do two rocket jumps and land on a target with full health? Why do they need to have self-damage reduced?

Again, you are treating the gunboats like it’s a crutch, it isn’t, my answer to your second quote already explained this part.

Quoted from Admirable

Why should the demoman be given a 2x capping bonus that was an exclusive trait of the scout for an irrelevant increase in hitscan damage taken (they are still going to get two shot by scouts). Is it not enough that they already have the highest damage output, the longest jump range and lawlstickies?

I don’t know about you but I main demoman and my biggest fear are scouts, the scout is like the demoman natural counter, having a weapon allowing extra cap rate in exchange for higher damage from your counter class makes it a pretty big risk/reward item and a perfect example of what a sidegrade should be.

About the second part, people make demoman seem like it’s a noob class with no real disadvantages, but as the only class in the game that doesn’t have a hitscan weapon I feel that’s a pretty great disadvantage, projectile weapons are not really reliable you know, and only having those at hand as a demoman is a pretty big thing. The “Demoman is OP” is the biggest overstatement in TF2 and it’s used a lot more than it should be

I leave you with a personal favorite comic that illustrates my feelings towards the “Demoman is OP” statement.

http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/image/114

Quoted from Admirable

Surely this is contrary to the pro-unlocks argument we hear about more variety? The reality is that the best unlocks will be identified over time and henceforth used consistently by all serious players. So in effect what you are doing is shifting the goal posts and attempting to rebalance the game with the band aid of unlocks, despite the fact that the majority of EU players have been happy with the game under the balance that class limits have offered.

As I said before there’s no such thing as the “best unlocks” or “crutch unlocks” if every allowed one is a balanced sidegrade.

Quoted from Admirable

You speak to the merits of the NA playstyle and come to the conclusion that unlocks are the cause, even when historically they have always favoured a much more aggressive, soldier-centric playstyle to their EU counterparts.

Of course I prefer the NA play style, it’s a much more interesting gamestyle for me as a viewer as well as a player, why shouldn’t I prefer it?

Quoted from Admirable

Eledorian gives you some candid advice and calls you up on the foolishness of the arguments you present, which seems like a measured response to what I have read from you thus far, but your reaction is a dismissive, defensive stance.

No, what he did was the generic elitist statement we get whenever there’s this discussion, and being called a lazy twit over a normal discussion is not something I particularly like.

Quoted from Admirable

You seem to think that it is we who are all in denial, but you fail to offer a solid objective argument. It seems you are getting wrapped up in your own beliefs, so convinced that you are offering some profound enlightenment that we all just can’t see.

I think above me are pretty solid arguments to present my view on it.

I don’t think you are all in denial, but I it seems to me you are afraid of change, afraid of going against a different gamestyle.

Unlocks have been around since 2008 atleast, it has been 4 years already, when you will face the change?

Obviously the main reason for the constant flow of new players onto tf2 is the non stagnation and the novelty factor of items/weapons. If you don’t allow this factor onto the comp scene then how do you want it to grow?

Quoted from Admirable

I don’t use write essays, but when I do I drop truth bombs:

As much as I like you and love your work on vanillatv you are not the holy guard of the truth, obviously there are different views on this matter as we have seen across this whole thread, sure, some more valid than others, but doesn’t make it ultimatly true

Quoted from Kaneco

[…]
Argumentum ad populum, just because it’s used by most NA teams doesn’t make them better than their vanilla counterparts.

Considering they play to win and thus will use the best options, fairly certain it does (barring 1 or 2 obvious exceptions).

Last edited by Buffalo Bill, 12 years ago

Quoted from Buffalo Bill

[…]

Considering they play to win and thus will use the best options, fairly certain it does.

+1

Quoted from Kaneco

I think above me are pretty solid arguments to present my view on it.

I don’t think you are all in denial, but I it seems to me you are afraid of change, afraid of going against a different gamestyle.

Unlocks have been around since 2008 atleast, it has been 4 years already, when you will face the change?

I do enjoy how you manage to craft these illusions about our apparant lack of wanting to try unlocks. You seem unaware of not only previous debates on the subject matter but also the fact that we’ve had

1. Atleast 2 (3?) seasons with a ruleset including unlocks
2. Several small tournaments held specificly to test certain unlocks and receive community feedback
3. A Community vote on the issue.

I’m elitist, yet you have no problem sweeping aside what amounts to atleast 2 years worth of debate on the matter to start all over at zero again. The content of your post shows your understanding of how 6v6 actually works at it’s core is limiting your ability to debate unlocks properly yet you show no intrest in using the material available to you on these forums and in the ETF2L newsposts to gain understanding of the subject.

Last edited by herpderp, 12 years ago

GUNBOATS-ONE-NIGHT-CUP !!

*anxiously waiting for punch in the face*