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Created 15th October 2011 @ 13:45
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The sentry gun forces teamwork out of both teams, all the wrangler does is shift the balance by making it much easier to defend and much harder to attack in a lot of scenarios. Saying that the wrangler demands better teamwork is only considering half of the situation.
Quoted from Beef
[…]
of course, but the even better team will have the scout, soldier and sniper with the engi, improving its chances of setting up the sentry
but the guys who dont want the sentry set up i.e the enemy team will have everybody but the engineer (whos on the wrangled sentry) + pyro i guess (to defend wrangler sg), so they win…
In that case the über push (med+heavy+pyro+demo) shouldn’t fail to take down the sentry+pyro :)
Im actually enjoying this theory-fortressing :p
Wrangler is fun cos when I played Engi without it I was sad. :(
Sorry everyone I want this weapon therefore hundreds of you will have to suffer it!
Yet the Wrangler is the single reason I get so many Lugermorph kills. No one expects the engy to use the pistol so underestimate me in a fire-fight. It’s no skin of my nose if it gets banned, and we may see more short-circuit use which will pose its own challenges.
I just posted this on the UGC forums:
”
I think it is safe to say that the majority of the greater tf2 community thinks allowing the wrangler in competitive play is a bad idea. Let this clip from last night’s [GG] vs. gR| extv broadcast speak for itself.
I apologize to all UGC admins that are tired of hearing about this wrangler op business. I’d be sick of hearing it too. My goal of this thread is to amplify a common perspective.
Last night:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GT8Af0qusY
Gangsta Gang vs. Gun Runners, game of the season by the way.
Here’s another QQ moment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Hv6lcwaZbU
Skip to 0:20
In both examples the engineer is not in a position to be killed. Of course the scenario would be different if there were other classes alive to help, but that cannot always be the case since it is 9vs9, not 9vsWrangler.
“
Quoted from SEABASS
Here’s another QQ moment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Hv6lcwaZbU
Skip to 0:20In both examples the engineer is not in a position to be killed. Of course the scenario would be different if there were other classes alive to help, but that cannot always be the case since it is 9vs9, not 9vsWrangler.
“
In this example just shoot at the engie?
Just because an engie is able to use a weapon it should be banned? What he does there does take quick a bit of skill. Not that easy to execute, also the entire time the sentry is useless and the point can be capped.
Quoted from SEABASS
I just posted this on the UGC forums:
”
I think it is safe to say that the majority of the greater tf2 community thinks allowing the wrangler in competitive play is a bad idea. Let this clip from last night’s [GG] vs. gR| extv broadcast speak for itself.
I apologize to all UGC admins that are tired of hearing about this wrangler op business. I’d be sick of hearing it too. My goal of this thread is to amplify a common perspective.Last night:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GT8Af0qusY
Gangsta Gang vs. Gun Runners, game of the season by the way.Here’s another QQ moment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Hv6lcwaZbU
Skip to 0:20In both examples the engineer is not in a position to be killed. Of course the scenario would be different if there were other classes alive to help, but that cannot always be the case since it is 9vs9, not 9vsWrangler.
“
I suggest you read through this thread. These videos dont prove anything.
Quoted from SEABASS
Here’s another QQ moment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Hv6lcwaZbU
Skip to 0:20In both examples the engineer is not in a position to be killed. Of course the scenario would be different if there were other classes alive to help, but that cannot always be the case since it is 9vs9, not 9vsWrangler.
“
What a load of bollocks. I can think of 3 reasons as to why it was your team’s fault instead of the Wrangler:
1.) Your heavy jumped and got bounced back by the rockets
2.) Your heavy only chose to focus fire the Engi right towards the end. Knowing how strong the Wrangler shield is, this should’ve been first priority
3.) Where’s your Demo?
That Engineer did a great job of keeping that sentry alive. You were outplayed.
I suppose it’s easier to blame a weapon most competent teams know how to counter than yourselves.
Last edited by Russian Guyovich,
Speaking from a UGC admin perspective, it is refreshing to see another Highlander league who supports a more liberal philosophy towards TF2 weapons and items in competition. This has been quite a debate on our forums recently and I am so happy to see another league who supports our position and even goes further by banning zero weapons/items.
At UGC we have 5 weapon bans. 4 are explictely due to bugs/exploits and 1 is due to overpowered/game changing abilities.
Current UGC bans-
1. Reserve Shooter – Remember how bugged the direct hit was when it first came out? This weapon shares similar bugs in that crits are given to people who jump, who fall off cliffs, and who are simply standing on staircases higher than the player with the reserve shooter. It is absolutely bugged and we have contacted valve about fixing it.
2. The Enforcer – This is the only weapon we have banned because it is Overpowered. This weapon has zero real drawbacks (0.5 sec cloak delay is negligible at best). From our experience when this is allowed spies become battle spies and resemble Clint Eastwood rather than a silent stealth ninja like Jackie Chan..wait that one doesnt work. This weapon totally changes the roll of the spy. Why attempt backstabs when you can 2 sot someone?
3. Cow Mangler 5000 – This one is currently being looked at again since the graphics were changed a few patches ago. We may allow this in the future.
4. Machina – A fully charged shot travels through ubered players. No other weapon in the game shoots through ubers so we feel this is a bug even though a small one.
5. Detonator – A quickswitch bug exists that bypasses the mini-crit and delivers a full crit. This is bugged and we have contacted valve about switching.
All in all, even if these weapons were allowed the bugs are quite small and not game changing – but they are bugs and we decided not to allow bugged weapons in our league.
If I were to pick only the most important out of that list as a suggestion to ETF2L, I would say ban the Reserve Shooter, Enforcer, and Detonator.
INF|UGC
But even if you manage to use the detonator switch trick all the time (which would be quite impressive) it would only be as strong as the regular flare gun (which crits on burning players all the time), right?
The enforcer and reserve shooter are indeed the most tricky weapons, we’ll have to see how they work out. With a little luck people start playing practice matches soon and we’ll have some real data.
Yea, like I said these are not game-changing bugs (aside from enforcer). The detonator quickswitch bug is definitely not intended by valve. If they wanted it to have a full crit they would have just given it the same damage as the flare gun. We tend to ban exploits that allow you to do something unintended.
I am also very curious as to how ETF2L quantifies weapon bans/allowances. You mentioned getting data from practice matches which I think is great. What kind of data are you collecting? How do you conduct a “test” of a weapon? How do you distinguish between opinions and facts regarding if a weapon is truely broken and/or over powered or if someone just “thinks” it is? And lastly, how is a final decision made per weapon?
In our league, everyone has an opinion about X weapon being banned for Y reason.. but is that a fact or an opinion?
Just curious how you are going to go about it =]
Quoted from RaCio
But even if you manage to use the detonator switch trick all the time (which would be quite impressive) it would only be as strong as the regular flare gun (which crits on burning players all the time), right?
Correct.
But that eliminates the Flaregun as a viable weapon choice, and gives the player using the detonator the extra option of detonating his flare. Overall, the bug makes the detonator a flat upgrade over the flaregun, which, arguably, is against what Valve intended.
Not to derail the thread any but has anyone heard of the detonator bug happening with rockets as soldier? Ie. if you switch it right the rocket will crit ? :/
Well, the detonator bug happens because normal flares always crit on burning players. The detonator has a modifier that changes this to mini-crits, so if you switch from the detonator to the flamethrower (which doesn’t have the modifier) it will still crit on burning players.
I doubt there’s the same kind of bug with soldier, but if so it could be the reserve shooter I guess.
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