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Official ruling on Saloon.tf interaction
Created 31st March 2015 @ 02:05
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Quoted from Phnx
[…]
I think betting on your own team should be allowed, the opposite should not.
That’s my guess, but we don’t know for sure since
Quoted from Hildreth
[…]
Can you point this out in the rule page?
Quoted from ducky
7.3 Admin discretion
The ETF2L rules are enforced at the discretion of the admin team. Any complaints will be judged on a case-by-case basis and different punishments may be handed out in each case.
Last edited by CHERRY,
Admin discretion rule has the biggest potential for abuse I have seen. I could literally complain about anything and if an admin agreed, they could ban someone for anything. Theoretically.
That and it isn’t a solid ruling on the matter in question, to the point where the website creator of Saloon wants clarification.
Quoted from Hildreth
Admin discretion rule has the biggest potential for abuse I have seen. I could literally complain about anything and if an admin agreed, they could ban someone for anything. Theoretically.
Equally without the rule I could just play around the rules to be a massive dick and then just say ‘well it’s not in the rules’.
I don’t understand why you’re expecting ETF2L to make a rule about people acting on a third party website. They have no control to check who’s making these bets more than any random member of the community.
All they can do (and should do) is update the Fraud Rule and explicitly state throwing matches or something similar is punishable. ETF2L shouldn’t be banning people based on betting on their opponents, it should be banning people for throwing matches. Those two are not always going to happen at the same time.
If you catch someone betting on their match opponents Cherry, I would suggest banning them permanently from saloon.tf and reporting them to ETF2L for investigation on match fixing. I think that’s the best way this can work.
Quoted from Permzilla
I don’t understand why you’re expecting ETF2L to make a rule about people acting on a third party website. They have no control to check who’s making these bets more than any random member of the community.
All they can do (and should do) is update the Fraud Rule and explicitly state throwing matches or something similar is punishable. ETF2L shouldn’t be banning people based on betting on their opponents, it should be banning people for throwing matches. Those two are not always going to happen at the same time.
If you catch someone betting on their match opponents Cherry, I would suggest banning them permanently from saloon.tf and reporting them to ETF2L for investigation on match fixing. I think that’s the best way this can work.
It’s not about a one third party website.
It’s about a general action that can be commited by ETF2L players and affects the league, it’s prestige, viewership and results. There is no clear rule about it even though smaller leagues like ozfortress adjusted and if you expect me to report the players to ETF2L at least state that it’s not allowed (and what are boundaries), cause while I’m all for banning the ones that bet against themselves on Saloon.tf I won’t support making rules on case by case basis out of thin air as it’s both not fair and abusive especially when admins had so long to adjust.
The main issue I raise that you didn’t notice is that right now noone even has a slight idea if they can bet on their own team. Admin discretion shouldn’t be used for anything more than major scandals that admins couldn’t prepare for.
Here’s some info about how it looks everywhere else: https://books.google.pl/books?id=X7G8BAAAQBAJ&lpg=PA96&ots=wmnZrnojqE&dq=match%20fixing%20suspended&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false
And if you prefer illustrations here are examples of scandals and penalties from more or less serious leagues and federations both “real” sports and eSports:
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/03/25/sports/tennis/ap-ten-itf-match-fixing.html?_r=0
http://www.pcgamer.com/valve-suspends-19-more-csgo-players-for-match-fixing/
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/24098876
http://www.tweaktown.com/news/43321/epsilon-suspends-cs-go-team-over-match-fixing-allegation/index.html
http://www.espnfc.com/el-salvador/story/1530297/el-salvador-suspends-22-players-during-match-fixing-probe
http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/tennis/bracciali-starace-suspended-40-days-in-match-fixing-inquiry/ar-AA9gW01
http://www.gosugamers.net/dota2/news/28813-matchfixing-scandal-investigation-continues-players-suspended-temporarily
http://www.redbull.com/us/en/esports/stories/1331701599690/gungfubanda-serving-time-in-starcraft-jail-match-fixing
http://sports.ndtv.com/cricket/news/222950-ipl-suspended-ips-officer-who-probed-betting-and-match-fixing-scandal-alleges-cover-up
http://www.classic97.net/sports/sierra-leone-match-fixing-captain-kargbo-one-15-suspended-16-07-14
Quoted from Oxy
[…]
Equally without the rule I could just play around the rules to be a massive dick and then just say ‘well it’s not in the rules’.
You can’t play around a good ruleset. How many widely used loopholes do you have in your country’s laws?
Last edited by CHERRY,
Betting on your team is allowed, betting against it ain´t.
There you have your rule, ez ;o
I’ll clear this up once and for all:
ETF2L does not care who, when, how or why someone bets on their or any other teams results as long as the match isn’t rigged/fixed/intentionally thrown (i.e. played to a completely or partially pre-determined result).
The making of an anti-fraud rule is in the process BUT we are not going to regulate our userbases interaction with saloon.tf, or any third party site for that matter.
Just think for a second:
What means of investigation do we have to trace and prove that someone asked his friend to bet on a match for him, or that someone used an alt to bet on his own matches?
The answer is none. It’s pointless to add a rule that we can’t enforce.
TL;DR:
From ETF2Ls POV:
Betting on the results of your own match, win or loss => Allowed
Rigging/fixing/intentionally throwing matches => Not allowed
What about esea, ozfortress, asiafortress, UGC? I’m not too familiar about their rulesets but Saloon.tf is pretty much a recent thing, I’m not too sure they’d have ‘solid’ rules on betting on one’s own matches like the one you expect out of ETF2L.
Which why is I feel the law should come from Saloon.tf. This is where the items are exchanged. Match-fixing is what we are concerned with as this affects results of games. However, whatever you wish to do with people who spend their items on your website is your call.
edit: ducky why do you ninja me like this
Last edited by Morphine,
Quoted from ducky
What means of investigation do we have to trace and prove that someone asked his friend to bet on a match for him, or that someone used an alt to bet on his own matches?
It’s not about enforcing, it’s about having policies ready for the incoming reports, but you’re free to do as you please.
I think it’s a harming decision and I’ll definitely be reducing amount of ETF2L Highlander games available to only add the ones involving teams of equal or really similar skill since there’s no incencitive from a league to play fair and there is a valid competitor for this gamemode.
For 6v6 we’ll continue adding vaguely close games for now, however wonderland vs TLR was refunded.
Last edited by CHERRY,
Thanks ducky, you da man
On another note, does this imply that ETF2L teams of all divisions shall be forced to take the competition very seriously, or just high div teams that get more attention?
Are Open/Mid teams going to be penalized for throwing the match because they know they’ll lose anyway or because it’s the end of the season and they don’t care anymore?
Don’t get me wrong, I think competitive should be treated in a serious manner by definition, but I am very curious as to how any quality control will be enforced, even in situations where the throwing team isn’t involved in any kind of rigging.
Quoted from Morphine
What about esea, ozfortress, asiafortress, UGC? I’m not too familiar about their rulesets but Saloon.tf is pretty much a recent thing, I’m not too sure they’d have ‘solid’ rules on betting on one’s own matches like the one you expect out of ETF2L.
Which why is I feel the law should come from Saloon.tf. This is where the items are exchanged. Match-fixing is what we are concerned with as this affects results of games. However, whatever you wish to do with people who spend their items on your website is your call.
edit: ducky why do you ninja me like this
Saloon is a new service, but gambling is not.
ESEA and ozfortress do have rules prohibiting betting on games you’re involved in (added without any discussion required) reflecting those of other games’ and sports organizations’.
However it’s worth pointing out that working with shounic and Mamboulay was nothing, but pleasure so it may only be a matter of pointing out the need when the new seasons begin. We didn’t really talk about it yet.
EDIT: It’s also worth pointing out that one case was already investigated by an ESEA and they didn’t complain about lack of tools.
EDIT2: AsiaFortress will ban betting against and/or your team before a new season begins.
Last edited by CHERRY,
Quoted from Fuxx
wrong, I think competitive should be treated in a serious manner by definition, but I am very curious as to how any quality control will be enforced, even in situations where the throwing team isn’t involved in any kind of rigging.
We can’t, and don’t want to, force people to ‘try hard’ in matches.
There’s a decent chunk of people who play officials for fun and mess around sometimes which is perfectly fine.
Maybe the term ‘throwing’ is too general, the other terms (rigging, fixing => playing to a pre-determined result) are more fitting for the problem at hand.
@Cherry
You’re a smart guy, I trust in your ability to manage the potential problems at hand.
If that means lowering the amount of betable games then so be it.
EDIT: It’s also worth pointing out that one case was already investigated by an ESEA and they didn’t complain about lack of tools.
We don’t require our players to use a client that rivals the NSA in the field of intrusiveness, so naturally our means of invading the privacy of people are very limited to non-existant.
Add that to the lack of resources caused by not being a pay2play league, or mining bitcoin off of our userbase, and there you have the reason why our ‘tools’ may be insufficient when compared to other leagues.
Oh the way I believe they handle it is very gentle and don’t require a client or spending a single penny at all (well unless Killing gets a paycheck).
I’m free to handle the logs of all the red flags turned by a player and league eventually judges if they are good enough and/or carry on investigation to decide if evidence is good enough to justify banning an offender or if he seems clear.
Also please do keep in mind that I in no way expect you to do anything more than banning the users caught red handed or even discouraging them.
Last edited by CHERRY,
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