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Dead Ringer Ban Discussion

Created 25th October 2016 @ 15:18

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Toast

S-O

Quoted from Aoshi

[…]

1 (response 2))

I think it is unfair to say the thread didn’t contain much on the actual weapon, as it did, and it wasn’t a DR thread anyhow, it was a general feedback thread if I remember correctly. Before the whitelist was posted, since from what I’m reading the general look on the DR from the admin team was to not nessecarily ban it, so therefore the ban has to come from the vote. From what I understand the vote was close, as I couldn’t make out the exact result from the video posted. As the DR has been in the same state since well before season 9, why is it that it first now is considered OP/Broken? It is because of the vote, which was never argued for, which I think would be required considering the weapon has remained unchanged (and unbanned) for over a year, without any proper forum even discussing let alone spamming “ban the DR!” with lopsided opinions. On top of that the vote was so close, suggesting that it wasn’t very one-sided, even further requiring reason. Even looking at the tables now, if all remaining competeting teams for the ban came into prem, we would still be looking at a vote where the result would be a tie between no-ban and either Dr-ban or both ban depending on what frosties pick. And even if we consider both teams to go along with the compromise of a DR ban only, we are looking at 62% for, which is pretty close to 50% considering the lower amount of teams. These are the teams that are a by definition proved worthy of prem, and therefore to vote. If we look at other teams coming in we are looking at a 62% result against either ban, even further requiring justification.

The exact same logic follows the ban of the short circuit. Also, I don’t personally think it makes any sense to say a team would vote to ban the DR to limited the potential of other teams, because it is a commonly used item, and the spies on the respective teams would be unhappy with the decision made by their team. Hildreths example I feel is a special case, because he played with the only spy that pretty much never used the DR.

2 (response 4))

Here, first of all you are critiquing the use of comparing an unlock, which allows a special playstyle, to a class, which you do yourself in the next sentence.

Second, the game is about winning, not having good logs. The DR can give you nice logs, but it will not win you games. As I have said previously the dead ringer is only really beneficial to your team if you are skilled yourself. Staying alive doesn’t contribute to your team. The jail free card argument I feel falls short as well because you aren’t nessecarily useful just because you stay alive, and a lot of spies prove this partly just by how they play, but also because how more useful they become when they switch over to invis from time to time. Even though it is partly the point of the unlock, killing a DR spy is difficult, however it is just not impossible, and if you think about how to deal with it, it can be done without the hassle it supposedly takes. Multiple scouts have shown me this. And if it was impossible, which it isn’t, everyone would be running it all the time, which they aren’t, and even if all this was true, they wouldn’t be nessecarily be more useful to their team compared to a part time invis spy, which this game is all about; being useful. The reason to ban an unlock is if its either bugged or too good. Since it is neither of these, because if it was too good everyone would be running it ALL the time, it does boil down to the annoying argument again, since every argument, casting aside all the shitposting, for the ban in either thread has been proven not to hold up.

I also think there’s an argument to be held about how it impacts spy in general. While grenjabob disagrees with me that the watch isnt better than any other, I do think he would agree that both watches has it’s time and place in many different areas, hence the general statement that the best possible spy is one who uses both. By banning it you are taking away many places where spy has been useful previously, effectively nerfing the spy massively because there are suddenly a massive amount of areas where the class can no longer deal nearly as well as it has been since season 1. Additionally not banning razorback here, you are buffing sniper massively and nerfing spy massively, which seems weird considering sniper is generally considered a better of the two pick classes.

3 (response 5))

If we are talking about how useful you are for your team (which is what this game is about), which is proportional to how good the unlock is, then the less skill argument just doesn’t hold up either. It does not require any significant less (or more) skill to run. It is true that nobody has a hard time pressing mouse2, but that doesnt make you useful, thats just annoying because you aren’t dead and it happens repeatably. Scrambled confirmed this by saying that I was good because of things like positioning. Take those qualities away and suddenly the DR player becomes quite mediocre, as again proved by the lower skilled spies.

I suspect the misconception of the DR is easy to do well with (in proper games) comes from pugs/lobbies where people, who don’t play spy much, use it just to stay alive, but rarely do you see them dominate the game whatsoever and are, again, not as useful as they could be. In this environment the unlock is harder to deal with because there is way less teamwork involved.

If you look at the beggars, that was also an example of a weapon that people found annoying, and wanted it gone. When admins put up threads about what they want to see gone in the season, there are usually also a variety of weapons people want gone. People have different opinions and most realize that they probably can’t get it banned if they suggested it considering a large majority of people would have to agree, which doesn’t happen because people have different opinions.

Response 6 concerning the “team bans item x to make them not able to use it” and “These players should still preform at a respectable level even without it.” problem are already adressed in the response.

Id also like to respond to:

Quoted from Aoshi

[…]
The season already started so it would be unfair to teams to unban it now.

There is no way in heaven that the DR change would have caused any resulting changes in the playoffs, and the main season hasn’t actually started yet. Changes can still be done as the effects are pretty much zero. Last minute changes aren’t unheard of, see 6s.

What you have done above is exactly something I’d like to see more of from admins, as you are somewhat giving out the thought proces and having it more up for discussion. Thx.

Also, I have played with the new whitelist and my points hold up.


Last edited by Toast,

Hildreth

geoff
bad

Quoted from scrambled

Hildreth refuses to acknowledge sniper vs sniper as being important because its a team game EleGiggle

Please tell me why danger shield is banned if svs isn’t important?

Ask the admins, my view is it shouldn’t be when looking at the big picture.

I have failed you again, I am sorry. Hopefully Steve (A guy with a b4nny level TF2 brain maining a terrible class like Pyro) can educate you.


Last edited by Hildreth,

Hildreth

geoff
bad

Aoshi, I basically just asked this:

it is time to move the discussion back to the Admins about whether they can give us a clear purpose of the whitelist and define all these associated terms to with weapon bans.

Rest of the posts is fairly irrelevant to the question but lets you understand my perspective.

sheepy dog's hand

(puffy vulva)
SORA⚡️
bad

Here’s my response to this drama:

Dear Muuki: You should see a doctor about your anal bleeding you mentioned on stream for everyone to see due to experimental anal sex with your new boyfriend. I told you in the chat we had before that you should make sure he uses lube and have him wear a condom when he puts it in but you didn’t listen, if it gets any worse see a doctor.


Last edited by sheepy dog's hand,

Lazybear

(Anti Cheat Staff)
MUUQ
itsallgood

I’m a bit confused when some people are saying that banning DR will allow for more diverse playstyles. Haven’t been following the current meta (I imagine DR gunspy is popular) but throughout several seasons both invisiwatch and DR have been used in prem, often depending on the map or what the spy prefers. With only the invisiwatch left, I think playstyles are a lot more limiting than before. There is also no room to switch around and become less predictable. The DR is far better now than it used to be, especially in comp.

Also the DR used to be 90% damage mitigation and close to instant restack with an ammo pack. I’m not saying people didn’t have a problem with it then, they did. They reduced the mitigation a bit, then Valve redesigned it so you can’t tank ubers or be unkillable anymore, which was the idea behind the speed buff. The DR is far better now for comp than it was back then.

No Lazy, you missed a patch or two lmao

DR, for quite a long time, was 90% damage shield with 6.5 seconds of 90% damage resistance cloak. Then in 2010 they changed it so there was a 35% cap on ammo that could be received from a single ammo pack, be it medium or large. It remained unchanged in that form for 3 years until the summer 2013 patch, where tanking damage reduced the damage resistance, since bodyblocking spam for 6.5 seconds was a tad silly.

Then two years later Gun Mettle arrived and gave it a 50% damage resistance upon initial hit and the weird bonuses for the first three seconds, which was bumped to 75% during December of the same year. But more importantly it has a 35% reduction in ammo pickup from ammo boxes, meaning it is in actuality far more spammable now than it was for the 5 years where it essentially went unchanged save for a tweak of the shield. I’ll explain below.

The “35% less ammo pickup” is slightly misleading because of the way tf2 does maths. Medium packs give 50% normally, but the 35% penalty is a multiplication, not a subtraction. So it’s 0.5×0.65 = 32.5% cloak gained from small packs. Naturally large packs behave as expected since, surprise surprise, 1×0.65 is the same as 1-0.35. So essentially in exchange for a 15% reduction in your initial damage shield, and then starting out with 65% resist instead of 90% for the supercloak as well as a 2.5% reduction in cloak gained from medium packs (lol) and the inability to extend the cloak meter while invisible, you have gained 3 seconds of speed boost, afterburn immunity, and large ammo packs grant you far more ammo than before, which sounds negligible until you realise that the speed boost not only gets you to those packs far quicker but payload maps have a small abundance of the things. It’s not exactly hard for a spy to get ammo. On 5CP maps, the DR is weaker but that’s always been the case since ammo is more scarce on those maps.

To summarise: The Dead Ringer in its current form is stronger than it has ever been. The problem was never how the unlock behaved back in Season 1, but how it behaves NOW. It’s a mess of poor balance decisions and it should not have all the extra bonuses. I’d be fine with it if one of the following was removed: Spammability, speed boost and afterburn immunity, or shield reduced. The most feasible option I can see is reinstating the 2013-2015 DR, but since valve really like sticking to some small part of their decisions, a 75% shield upon first hit. I wouldn’t mind it being 90%; I just know Valve won’t do that.

DCS

(Head Admin)
T9!
Dr. med.

Steve,

I love you. You know that.
However, I am failing to understand why you chose to leave the adminteam instead of posting these exact same arguments in the adminforums. They would have had much more impact and weight to them. You are bringing up excellent arguments here. It llooks like you put a lot of thought and time into writing these posts…
I was not present to said meetings/votes. I am one of those mentioned -in League admin related issues – inactive HL admins. So it could be my bad.

Chronos

BMS

Quoted from DCS

Steve,

I love you. You know that.
However, I am failing to understand why you chose to leave the adminteam instead of posting these exact same arguments in the adminforums. They would have had much more impact and weight to them. You are bringing up excellent arguments here. It llooks like you put a lot of thought and time into writing these posts…
I was not present to said meetings/votes. I am one of those mentioned -in League admin related issues – inactive HL admins. So it could be my bad.

Shame steve didn’t say any of these arguments in the discussion and instead said he was unsure about the vote and focussed on shit talking. It would have been nice to have had a more mature debate

ondkaja

SORA⚡️

Quoted from Hildreth

[…]

That is the leagues work, to answer the complaints of their community.

“complaints of their community” != a few guys writing essays

the admins are under no obligation to respond to the senseless garbage that gets posted in this thread.

Muuki

scn
bad

Quoted from ondkaja

[…]

“complaints of their community” != a few guys writing essays

the admins are under no obligation to respond to the senseless garbage that gets posted in this thread.

just because your brain can’t comprehend it doesn’t mean its senseless garbage

Steve!

S-O

You’re absolutely right Chronos. I assumed that in the discussion I was surrounded by players that had the same level of understanding of the game as me. That was clearly not the case for some of them, or at least they didn’t make the effort to appear knowledgeable on the subject. Hopefully you’ve been able to extract some knowledge from my posts here.

Stinson, I’m more than happy to talk over the reasons I left the admin team with you but this isn’t really the time and place to do so

P.S. It’s hard to be 100% sure about a vote when you are given 2 minutes to think about your answer. If anyone was 100% sure about it, they either gave it much though beforehand or made a rash decision. I didn’t consider developing arguments for banning the DR a good way to spend my time because to me the weapon is not OP. And I have not heard arguments from the side that did feel this way at the time of the vote.


Last edited by Steve!,

ondkaja

SORA⚡️

Quoted from Muuki

[…]just because your brain can’t comprehend it doesn’t mean its senseless garbage

projection

DCS

(Head Admin)
T9!
Dr. med.

Also there seems to be a misunderstanding towards the obligations of admins.

Our job is not to read through all the threads on this website answer possible questions. If you wish to talk to an admin, you are welcome to use our support ( IRC). And even there we don’t HAVE to answer questions that don’t need urgent answers.

These public forums are for our users to discuss matters. Sure, most admins will have a general idea of what is being discussed, but that doesn’t mean they have to actively be involved.
Not even in our feedback forums we have to answer. Feedback forums are for… well feedback. That means telling us what you think about certain things. Here we are obliged to read the discussion, yes. But not necessarily respond.

Although I do admit all in all it feels better if we do respond at some point. But I don’t think it is fair to say it’s our job

Toast

S-O

It doesn’t matter what your job is, but it is nice if you would respond from time to time, in fashion of what aoshi did yesterday, that’s great. Nobody needs to do anything, it’s just nice if you do, that is all. Shitposting always comes from the same people anyhow (see these two threads), so that’s easy to filter out.

Now getting thread back on track, again. If any admin/meaningful person could take a look at what i critiqued aoshis response to steve, goreston and hildreth, and tell me why it doesn’t hold up or stuff like that (or just consider it), that would be sweeeeeeeet.


Last edited by Toast,

Toast

S-O

Quoted from Chronos

Shame steve didn’t say any of these arguments in the discussion and instead said he was unsure about the vote and focussed on shit talking. It would have been nice to have had a more mature debate

Steve said he was against the ban. One shouldn’t need to argue against a ban if it hasn’t been banned anyway, especially for the period of time it wasn’t, unless proper arguments for it are brought up, which didnt happen. The whitelist is the way it is because people have thought about it and discussed it. A change in it needs justification, it needs a reason. The only reason Bureau brought up for the ban was that I said that it should either have been No-ban or DR-ban. Even in the post discussion you didn’t bring any reasoning up, nobody did. What khazul said wasn’t as much an argument for the DR ban, as much as it was him agreeing that it could be annoying in some way, because teams have a hard time killing DR spies, which has now been argued against.

Another thing is that most of the discussion involved sniper, which is strange because the only thing this whitelist achieves is massively lowering diversity in playstyles, nerfing engi, spy and buffing sniper.


Last edited by Toast,

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