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Etf2l New div system

Created 10th March 2015 @ 14:38

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RTC

I feel there needs to be another division between Mid and Open, at least for 6v6. The skill differences between the newest teams in Open and the teams that could do adequately in Mid is absolutely enormous, and it would be helpful to even out the amount of traffic in the Open tier at the moment.

A good example is UGC Iron and Steel; Iron is mostly reserved for new teams full of new players or teams that did poorly in Steel last season, whereas Steel is the next step up.

What’s more, a division with over 100+ teams is a clusterfuck, and simply getting one bad draw for a new team in the first round is demotivating to say the least.

The tier system works excellently for High and Mid, and is mostly the same for Prem, but Open tier needs a lot of work.


Last edited by RTC,

AB

Quoted from Swi

new system broken nothing else to say.

solid reasoning.

R4ndom

Devon

Quoted from RTC

What’s more, a division with over 100+ teams is a clusterfuck, and simply getting one bad draw for a new team in the first round is demotivating to say the least.

Hasn’t it always been a Big clusterfuck? I don’t get it, why do you think reducing the number of teams is going to stop the BIG CLUSTERFUCK (omg drama caps). The whole ETF2L website tells you exactly what to do, in case you have a game, which is the only thing you have to do. Play your assigned games every week, nothing less. If you say that it works for 2/3 of the tiers and only one of them is messed, why does it have to be changed? That’s another reason to try to improve and leave Open, which isn’t hard at all.

RTC

Quoted from R4ndom

[…]

Hasn’t it always been a Big clusterfuck? I don’t get it, why do you think reducing the number of teams is going to stop the BIG CLUSTERFUCK (omg drama caps). The whole ETF2L website tells you exactly what to do, in case you have a game, which is the only thing you have to do. Play your assigned games every week, nothing less. If you say that it works for 2/3 of the tiers and only one of them is messed, why does it have to be changed? That’s another reason to try to improve and leave Open, which isn’t hard at all.

I’m suggesting that we split Open into two tiers because of the wide skill threshold and magnitude, which therefore creates a clusterfuck, especially for newer teams trying to gain ground in the league. The system itself will remain the same for Mid, High and Prem.

fraac

JOHN
CENATION

I’m pretty convinced by the reasoning that says Open is the tier served best by the Swiss system. Why do you think it’s a clusterfuck? Isn’t it more that teams didn’t know what to expect? Getting more games around your level has to be a good thing, even if you don’t understand the system.


Last edited by fraac,

supreme

Godz

Actually the new system is pretty ok, as someone else suggested posts before, maybe splitting the open tier in 2 could be a good idea, like you know: High-mid-low-open, my 2c btw.

ducky

[HA]

Quoted from RTC

I feel there needs to be another division between Mid and Open, at least for 6v6. The skill differences between the newest teams in Open and the teams that could do adequately in Mid is absolutely enormous, and it would be helpful to even out the amount of traffic in the Open tier at the moment.

Placing top in open and doing adequately in mid are too very different things.

To use old terms you’re saying that a top div 5 team can easily compete vs a top div 4/ bottom div 3 team, that’s just a ridiculous claim.

A good example is UGC Iron and Steel; Iron is mostly reserved for new teams full of new players or teams that did poorly in Steel last season, whereas Steel is the next step up.

Define “good example” please.

Not every new team will be equally skilled to every other new team.
Some might have better dm, better base knowledge of teamwork and postioning etc.
These things do make a big difference you know.

I think having all the new teams play in a new team only division is a terrible idea.

Having this kind of system assumes that every new team is too dumb/bad to “take the next step up” and compete with the a little more experienced teams, taking their chance of major improvement which can only be achieved by playing against teams who are better than you.

I’ve said it before but just look at the current open tables.
The first place team is completely new, yet they’re wrecking everybody.
Your argument is invalid.

What’s more, a division with over 100+ teams is a clusterfuck, and simply getting one bad draw for a new team in the first round is demotivating to say the least.

The tier system works excellently for High and Mid, and is mostly the same for Prem, but Open tier needs a lot of work.

The size of the tier is completely irrelevant to how the swiss system functions.

An open tier team will play just as many officials as a high tier team, regardless of whether there’s 200 or 2000 teams in the tier.

In fact having less teams in a tier is what you don’t want to do, it makes for less balanced matches later on in the season.

The more teams you have the more options are available when trying to match teams because there’s more potential matchups to choose from, logically you’re able to generate more balanced fixtures.

Besides , getting a “bad draw” e.g. getting matched against a stronger team in Week 1 is possible, but very unlikely.

Admins pre-seed teams based off of their previous experience, which means that in Week 1 new teams will play other new teams or Div 6 teams who did badly in their last season.

If you lose that first match then , well, you’re a new team for a reason.
You’re gonna lose, you’re gonna do badly it’s nothing unusual.

The next week will be against a team who has the same seed/points as you (e.g. a team who was seeded low and lost their first match aswell) so it should be even more balanced.

If you lose every single match in open than you just happen to be the worst team to have entered the season, it leaves a lot of room for improvement in the very least.

Obviously once you start winning more and more matches you’ll be placed against stronger opponents.
I’ve already said it before: Unless you’re the absolute best team in your tier you can’t win every single match, you’re not supposed to win every single match.

NeuTronas

WE DID IT

Or maybe we could just have “points” based system, where every tier would have their own required points to get promoted.

For example, the season starts:
Admins are giving points according to the team level (tier/div), prem – 1000, high – 800, mid – 500, open – 200.
When the team lose – they lose 30/20 points, when they win – they win 130/20 points depending on the enemy team position.
And they can get promoted/demoted during the season.

This idea needs to be refined but still x)

Nechi

TEZC

Quoted from ducky

[…]

Placing top in open and doing adequately in mid are too very different things.

To use old terms you’re saying that a top div 5 team can easily compete vs a top div 4/ bottom div 3 team, that’s just a ridiculous claim.

[…]

Define “good example” please.

Not every new team will be equally skilled to every other new team.
Some might have better dm, better base knowledge of teamwork and postioning etc.
These things do make a big difference you know.

I think having all the new teams play in a new team only division is a terrible idea.

Having this kind of system assumes that every new team is too dumb/bad to “take the next step up” and compete with the a little more experienced teams, taking their chance of major improvement which can only be achieved by playing against teams who are better than you.

I’ve said it before but just look at the current open tables.
The first place team is completely new, yet they’re wrecking everybody.
Your argument is invalid.

[…]

The size of the tier is completely irrelevant to how the swiss system functions.

An open tier team will play just as many officials as a high tier team, regardless of whether there’s 200 or 2000 teams in the tier.

In fact having less teams in a tier is what you don’t want to do, it makes for less balanced matches later on in the season.

The more teams you have the more options are available when trying to match teams because there’s more potential matchups to choose from, logically you’re able to generate more balanced fixtures.

Besides , getting a “bad draw” e.g. getting matched against a stronger team in Week 1 is possible, but very unlikely.

Admins pre-seed teams based off of their previous experience, which means that in Week 1 new teams will play other new teams or Div 6 teams who did badly in their last season.

If you lose that first match then , well, you’re a new team for a reason.
You’re gonna lose, you’re gonna do badly it’s nothing unusual.

The next week will be against a team who has the same seed/points as you (e.g. a team who was seeded low and lost their first match aswell) so it should be even more balanced.

If you lose every single match in open than you just happen to be the worst team to have entered the season, it leaves a lot of room for improvement in the very least.

Obviously once you start winning more and more matches you’ll be placed against stronger opponents.
I’ve already said it before: Unless you’re the absolute best team in your tier you can’t win every single match, you’re not supposed to win every single match.

man is not about me and is not about my wins im just help for a friend last season
i got few friend new team they are new to comp i helped them with getning better and mentor them has a team they are great dudes pretty strong but they cant play against team that alredy played d5 or d4 cuz they will just lose how the hell you want to get this comunitty bigger if you arnt letting any chance for new teasm with new players and belive me alot of open teams dont even care bout money and i dont know bout it so dont say money is an issue.
you should still have d6 for new teams and then open cuz when you let small fish play against shark the small fish wont have any chance but small fish against small fish is a better fight so with time he will be bigger so he will be able to compete the sharks (yea sea lovers come to here)
and alot of teams do practice everyday to improve but still they arnt geting d5 before they even played d6 you cant tell them get good without giving them any chance to do it.

Nechi

TEZC

Quoted from NeuTronas

Or maybe we could just have “points” based system, where every tier would have their own required points to get promoted.

For example, the season starts:
Admins are giving points according to the team level (tier/div), prem – 1000, high – 800, mid – 500, open – 200.
When the team lose – they lose 30/20 points, when they win – they win 130/20 points depending on the enemy team position.
And they can get promoted/demoted during the season.

This idea needs to be refined but still x)

neu that a great idea but and nice you are trying but the that really hard to programm but with hard work it can work.
i guess you can do it and you can do high playoff low playoff like in football and then it wil be low teams against low teams and then winner from low and winner from high then next season they will compete and better place and then better until they will get prem so they wont get shock of losing all officials in their first season ofc i can make my idea even better but if an admin will try to listen and ignore money and that stuff that really can work and to help us to create a bigger comunnity

Rex

Why not have one mega tier with all teams and just play forever until we know who is the best.

Seriously though don’t get the complaining. If you’re bad you play worse people. It might mean getting rolled but even within groups in the old system there would be rolls. I think like fraac said the only argument is teams losing motivation if they are on a losing streak where as they may have won a game or two more in the old system.

Even with the old system there would be skill difference and some groups would be “the group of death” and there were teams that should perhaps be in the group above/below but clearly the admins cannot make a perfect system where everything is wonderful because of the amount of variables.

I like this system even if it does mean lack of pixel trophies :D

AB

Everyone who plays their first season of competitive has a hard time – it’s just what happens. You’re supposed to struggle, it’s the only way you get better.

If you’d rather whinge about being beaten by better players who’ve put in the work, instead of putting in time yourself to improve then you’re not really suited to competitive play.

It makes no sense for completely new teams to be able to come in and coast through.


Last edited by AB,

rockie

stop posting WOTs ppl

Nechi

TEZC

Quoted from Rex

Why not have one mega tier with all teams and just play forever until we know who is the best.

Seriously though don’t get the complaining. If you’re bad you play worse people. It might mean getting rolled but even within groups in the old system there would be rolls. I think like fraac said the only argument is teams losing motivation if they are on a losing streak where as they may have won a game or two more in the old system.

Even with the old system there would be skill difference and some groups would be “the group of death” and there were teams that should perhaps be in the group above/below but clearly the admins cannot make a perfect system where everything is wonderful because of the amount of variables.

I like this system even if it does mean lack of pixel trophies :D

but why should new teams keep playing if they losing and losing? and when all good guys will stop to play who will keep the legecy on? i think this system isnt that bad but i think it should make better chance to new teasm against new teams like their own div i think if you will improve div system it will be much better then this system

fraac

JOHN
CENATION

Chrono, I don’t think you understand the Swiss system. You play against teams with the same record as you. If you still can’t win any games, an 8-team div6 wouldn’t help.

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