Highlander Season 18 Preseason Cup Feedback

Created 15th February 2019 @ 21:54

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Vigil – Not much has changed in 2 years or whatever. Parts of the map are very convoluted and beyond 2nd it feels a bit claustrophobic. Overall it’s passable but Badwater and Borneo are superior.

Lakeside – Fun koth map with some over-the-top sniper sightlines. Not much to choose between it and Warmtic.

Alloy – The fact that A-C is viable makes it more dynamic than Gravelpit. However it seems C is just far too difficult to push. Defenders have so many options to rotate and generous spawntimes. The capping time is not particularly fast either, so you seem to have to somehow wipe the enemy team, who can just choose to avoid fighting and can’t even be pushed into spawn. Not an enjoyable map and considerably worse than steel or Gravelpit.

In terms of weapons, I didn’t notice the changes, but I see no reason to ban the detonator.

KZ jeven



Last edited by KZ jeven,


(League Admin)

alloy is ass


want it?

Vigil/why Badwater needs to be replaced by literally any other payload map
Vigil > Badwater. Let’s please do what the Americans decided upon years ago and finally get this map out of the pool, I really do not want to play Badwater again in any shape, way, state or form, thanks.

To people who keep saying “why not just play the pro version”:
The pro version is arguably even worse because the creator really doesn’t know what he wants to do with it, there’s twelve different versions and most of the changes completely seem to miss the point or make it waaay too easy to push.
You can make third slightly more enjoyable by having a wider staircase (not a no-build zone because you can still bodyblock that as any player if you commit to the meta hold) and adding a forward spawn after capping second.
The latter is because of the main problem with this map. The staircase literally pales in comparison to the obnoxious walking distance between points (there’s several things Spies can do on Badwater anyway to get on top or be productive in different ways). The absurd walking distance between points makes the map extremely dependant on teleporters both on offense and defense. On 1st offense you need to walk to the last point of the map from first to destroy one teleporter, which can be rebuilt with EE, which seems to be ran by every Engineer now all of a sudden. Furthermore, a team could have their Spy camp the teleporter on defense to the point third becomes a pain to push. A forward spawn would help, but even if you fix that problem last is inherently flawed. The spawn area where Snipers can freely rotate through doors makes it incredibly dependant on SvS if the Sniper is smart about his positioning, not to mention the amount of high ground on the defensive side, stuff like the cart rolling backwards up the hill (because fuck you right) etc. You can literally roll a team on all three points and the defensive team can still somehow salvage it and make it a 9+ minute time. The pro version really cannot salvage how horrendous last is without either making it too easy or hard to hold. The stairs from tires to spiral are not a good way of dealing with the countless problems on last, all it does is make last way too easy to push. The stairs connecting the top spawn to the bottom might as well not exist either because spawn warping is a thing as long as you have the b4nny bind.

Vigil is not perfect but I can definitely see a lot of changes compared to the last time this was played in ETF2L. Again, I did not participate but I did play Vigil in UGC several times and I think the map has gotten pretty solid. If people don’t like Vigil maybe Swiftwater or Borneo are worth considering, although Borneo’s last point suffers from a lot of the things I mentioned regarding why Badwater is bad.

This video does a decent job of mentioning most reasons why Badwater is awful to play if you have too much spare time. I made sure this was not made by a Spy main because apparently those are not allowed to have opinions on Badwater.

tl;dr replace Badwater with Vigil, Asteroid, 2Fort or anything but please get rid of it. The main problem with Badwater is not the staircase on third but the entirety of last and the absurd walking distance between points.

Lakeside/koth maps
Lakeside and Warmtic have similar issues so I don’t really care which one gets played. On Warmtic I’d say the dropdown is the main problem of the map and why a lot of players do not like it. Even though Lakeside has more Sniper sightlines I’d say Snipers have about equal impact on both maps.

I am not really sure why we ‘tested’ Lakeside though. Lakeside has been played for several seasons and nothing has changed. If there was a pro version of that map I would understand why this map was in the cup, but as of now I’m not sure why we didn’t try a different koth map like Synthetic, Cascade or anything really.

I’ve really grown to dislike the shutter sentry on Coalplant to the point I’d like to see it get removed from the pool over Warmtic. I like a lot of things about that map but the shutter door + Wrangler being an unlock makes it so you have to do 648 damage to a sentry pretty much at the same time and if the Engineer has more than two active brain cells he can just close the shutter and fix his sentry up before you do that damage.

Alloy is not good. I did not play this cup, but I played the map several seasons ago in a previous cup and it doesn’t look like it changed much (for the better) looking at several streams. Having access to the final point after capping either A or B is silly, but even then you can just hold C forever with very generous spawns that are virtually next to the control point.

Bans and unbans are good. I dislike Detonator but I don’t think it needs to be banned as long as you unban the Spy-cicle. If Spy-cicle remains banned I would like to see the Detonator be banned as well. I think the ability to clear stickies and to do jumps is neat but being able to put people on fire for ten seconds by staying at long range and spamming is annoying. Snipers have counterplay to it because of the Darwin’s, in the combo your own Pyro will usually nullify whatever afterburn he can do anyway and most of the other classes have means to quickly get a health kit due to mobility or have a health pool that makes the afterburn almost redundant. If you keep the Spy-cicle banned, the only thing Spy can do is die or hope he’s close enough to a source of health or anything to get rid of the afterburn.

The Spy-cicle is better in most situations than default, but it can also backfire during moments where you were about to get a backstab but then you get hit by the Pyro who is flailing his mouse like he’s having a wank. It’s mainly a factor when it comes to getting rid of Detonator spam or crossing chokes that a Pyro can deny by simply existing because they are not wide enough to cross without taking any flame damage. If you are close to the pyro, 99% of the time you will still die if he has a monitor and you don’t get to surf his airblast or any damage source.

I’m not sure what the Spy-cicle has to do with any of the throwables. It’s a thing that people keep mentioning, that they want their Milk/Jarate back if Spy-cicle gets unbanned. Banning those unlocks is one of the best things to happen to HL hands down. If you unban those for the sole purpose of spotting Spies, you are also bringing back mini crits on demand and you are giving one of the best classes in the game a way to heal itself by doing damage.

tl;dr unban Spy-cicle and keep Detonator or ban both as a pair

Last edited by Adje,



Alloy most shit map which i played. lakeside ok but not better then product and warmtic. vigil is shit.
ban detonator because of what? ban all secondary weapons then. no point for ban it maybe only if ur retarded



I didnt felt major impact on gameplay after detonator ban. I was on fire as always and it wasnt an issue to begin with since u usually have your own pyro with you.
Reserve shooter didnt impacted my play too much it may lied that i play engi lol

Cp_alloy may be fun. But I still prefer steel over it just becouse how many options you have for steel compared to alloy. It could be fun instead of lets say gully but leave steel alone.
pl_vigil is really good. There isnt any op spot just like on badwater. You have so many open flank routes that i cant wait to see it in season and what crazy strategies people can come up with. I really wish to see it over badwater just becouse how well balanced this is. Attack spawns are really well placed so not having a tele isnt a straight handicap for team and tele may be used for some cheeky plays. OMG take this map in.
Koth-lakeside is ok but warmtic is way more intresting to play. Lakeside is mainly going from pilar to pool. where in warmtic you are reallyfree to do whatever you want. And getting to a decent sniper position is harder than just taking stairs from spawn.

Take vigil pls


(ETF2L Donator)

add alloy.


i dont think alloy is a good map
lakeside is a good map imo, better than product but not as good as warmtic
vigil is great, keep badwater and replace upward

unban detonator

Last edited by CazaroC,


alloy is poo

lakeside is cool

edit: vigil seemed ok, but not much incentive to hold the 2nd point, as others have pointed out


Last edited by rech,



Alloy: Significantly worse than Steel or Gravelpit. It won’t ever be a good map (without very significant redesign) and shouldn’t be in another cup in the future.

Lakeside: It is an okay map but worse than the current 3 koth maps. The combination of sightlines, point height advantage and pool room makes for a pretty unfun experience.

Vigil: Surprisingly good. I think I like it more than Borneo.

all 3 maps played are worse than the maps they should replace

also detonator ban is useless, however spycicle should be banned: it was unbanned for the cup and all of the sudden most of the spies play with it



Alloy I think is a refreshing and welcome change.
Lakeside should not replace other current koth maps imo, it seems to favour sniper sightlines too much as compared to warmtic or product.

Last edited by edgarr,



Detonator ban will kill already small variaty, when it comes to pyro secondary weapons. Shotgun masterrace seems like. Although the weapon can be just annoying, it’s allowing pyro to make some fancy stuff, which you surely enjoy watching on cast. Spycycle was fine weapon untill you banned both jarate and milk. Unban jarate, if you want to bring back spycycle. Milk is out of the question without rework. Now, if you ban detonator as well, you will just enlarge the gap between spycycle and other knifes, making it only reasonable pick.

Concerning maps:
Alloy is fun with right team but has 2 big flaws – A is just bad and last spawns are far too quick for defending side. Imagine cp_steel but with 1.5x faster spawns and no doors closed when you cap C and D. It’s just constant fight on the point, making it easier for defending team, as last is basically on their spawn, while blue got long way to go.

Vigil is the most promising map, which isn’t played in EU right now. It has its own flow, can be very tense on some points, and it’s fairly balanced overall. I mostly dislike the visual aspect, as it looks bit inconsistent and too ascetic.

Lakeside was played in quite a few seasons already and it’s just not working. When I play it on UGC noone seems to be happy about it. Despite my aversion to the way current koths are played in highlander, I just can’t find a reason to replace one of them with even worse map.

Generally go for maps with active makers, instead of trying out the same version of map, that didn’t work previously, counting it will be taken differently by community after year or so.



spycicle/detonator – either ban both or unban both, I’d prefer 1st option
reserve shooter – who cares?
vigil – ok, but instead of upward not badwater
lakeside – fine map, but definitely worst then product/warmtik.
alloy – like gravelpit and steel have a bastard, if u want to replace steel just add gravelpit



pls dont ban spy-cicle

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