Forum

Higher div players playing on lower divs

Created 29th January 2014 @ 12:34

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WeeD_SmokeR

drotalion. that was discussed in game. Only thing that can prove is the source tv. But since there isn’t any rule against it there is no pont of revewing the demo just to get that part of the chat.

WeeD_SmokeR

But regardless of what we agreed on the merc’s class. The problem was not the merc. The mercs could have played at any class. The problem was the premiership player switching to his main class when that merc came in

Jesse James

There is. It is an agreement about mercs and in that case, a clear violance of the rules (of the game) Just get your proofs and send it to an admin then.

skeej

(ETF2L Donator)
UbeR
Fe |

As it is impossible to create rules that prevent these kinds of scenarios, admins will have to ignore classes when they see high div players in lower div teams, and reseed the teams accordingly (eg, Uber could have been seeded in div4 instead of div5). Maybe the admins even already considered this, and they just underestimated what MM could do with his army of drunk/stoned dutchies.

wel flauw hoor okkospang :P


Last edited by skeej,

WeeD_SmokeR

mega .co .nz/ #!EkN2DD7R!gm1PTtktY1grafBHP7ET-T2WWGTkw6XeXpSSDow4rkw

around tick 25000.
Thats what made us accept the merc. If they kept their word.


Last edited by WeeD_SmokeR,

WeeD_SmokeR

@skeej
It’s not impossible
To begin with ETF2L should not allow teams with higher div players go to lower divs (its not just MightyMe in there)

Secondly there could be a rule that would not allow higher div players play their main class on lower divs

And that when a merc is accepted after some conditions(in this case play as the calss discussed on the match) if the team fails to follow this agreement there should be some kind of penalty.


Last edited by WeeD_SmokeR,

kKaltUu

R6S

Hi, I was playing against you yesterday. As much as I don’t like having this thread open whilst the admins haven’t made a decision, I feel that there are a few valid questions that need to be answered.

First off, let me start with the match. Mightyme hasn’t played comp 6v6 for a long while now. And in the meantime he has started his community team Uber.
I got MightyMe’s message yesterday that pns denied all the mercs they could offer, even players that were div 6 (which would be allowed under the HL ruleset, to give you an idea of how the rules are set up).
After a lot of arguments pns finally decides I’m allowed as a merc, and all is dandy.

Granary was a fun match, and we saw a lot of pushes from you that lead to a 3-3 stalemate. At that time we lost one of our players and started searching for a div 6 community member.
This is where things go south. Mightyme was trying to figure out if the merc could be accepted or that they should contact the admins (my status as an HL admin is null, since I was playing in the match.)
After a while pns accepts wiethoofd as merc on steam (ingame was a mess after you’ve changed the map several times for the golden cap), and after we were ready pns tried to limit the rostered mightyme to be restricted to a class. This is not only impossible, but shows bad sportsmanship from your end when you tried to deny the merc retroactively.
Uber retaliates with winning the golden cap.

I can see why you’re upset, but your actions in the second map blew us out of the water.
Not only did you refuse to ready up and put the decision on us to choose between claiming a default win or waiting for ages, but staying in spawn for the duration of the match was flat out insulting to everyone involved.
The match could’ve been salvaged with the admins forcing a decision on the golden cap, but due to your griefing there is no way to say who was the better team on Gullywash.
On top of that, cussing and name calling is bad mannered, and I don’t think anyone can say that you weren’t crossing the line at the end of the match ( http://logs.tf/173363 ).

I’ve seen that mightyme has offered to replay the match (or the GC round?) and I think that’s really generous of Uber, considering your constant insults to us and our parents.

The second part I want to touch is the discussion about allowing premiership players to play in lower divisions:
This subject has been brought up a few times in the past, and it’s a really intricate one. At one hand, the lower divisions are expected to be a breeding pond for lesser experienced players. The divisions are plentiful and are being set up with progress to higher divs (or fun play) in mind. To supplement that, we have no issue to let experienced players mentor lower division teams, nor do we force people to play above their expected skill level.

In my personal opinion: it’s nonsense to disallow players to join a lower division than their past ones. The player can have several reasons ranging from lesser commitment to the game to mentoring their new Epsilon from bottom to top. It is not feasible to expect that from everyone involved in the league.

TLDR;
Div 5 srs bsnss


Last edited by kKaltUu,

Popcorp

there should be a rule that restricts players from playing their main class in 3+ divs lower their usual, so for example if you are div 2 Scout, you cant play in Div 6 and 5 as your Main…

But if you think about it, most Div 2+ players know how to play all 6v6 classes, so i would say Restrict Prem/Div 1 players to Medic in 3+ Divs lower their div

WeeD_SmokeR

Quote:
“After a while pns accepts wiethoofd as merc, and after we were ready pns tried to limit the rostered mightyme to be restricted to a class. This is not only impossible, but shows bad sportsmanship from your end when you tried to deny the merc retroactively.”

We accepted the merc when players on your team said in-game that he would be playing on a specific class(not demoman). Thats when we accepted him.

As for the second map. I cannot answer for all my team mates. Yes It should not have went that way. We should have played the second map. But I must admit. Even i lost all hope of having a fair match. Why bother playing to get rapped?
I want to play and learn more, not play and lose confidence in my self because thats what happens when you lose a mid fight in less than 10 seconds.(Like a wipe)

And having high divs players mentor a team yes . I agree. Why not? But beeing a mentor and playing for them wining the game like it was nothing are two different things.

I had a mentor. An old player from Premiership(Alphazen) he taught me alot but he never palyed with us. Thats just unfair for the other team. Teaching is one thing but showing it on a season match is completely different thing.


Last edited by WeeD_SmokeR,

skyro

Quoted from kKaltUu

Hi, I was playing against you yesterday. As much as I don’t like having this thread open whilst the admins haven’t made a decision, I feel that there are a few valid questions that need to be answered.

First off, let me start with the match. Mightyme hasn’t played comp 6v6 for a long while now. And in the meantime he has started his community team Uber.
I got MightyMe’s message yesterday that pns denied all the mercs they could offer, even players that were div 6 (which would be allowed under the HL ruleset, to give you an idea of how the rules are set up).
After a lot of arguments pns finally decides I’m allowed as a merc, and all is dandy.

Granary was a fun match, and we saw a lot of pushes from you that lead to a 3-3 stalemate. At that time we lost one of our players and started searching for a div 6 community member.
This is where things go south. Mightyme was trying to figure out if the merc could be accepted or that they should contact the admins (my status as an HL admin is null, since I was playing in the match.)
After a while pns accepts wiethoofd as merc on steam (ingame was a mess after you’ve changed the map several times for the golden cap), and after we were ready pns tried to limit the rostered mightyme to be restricted to a class. This is not only impossible, but shows bad sportsmanship from your end when you tried to deny the merc retroactively.
Uber retaliates with winning the golden cap.

I can see why you’re upset, but your actions in the second map blew us out of the water.
Not only did you refuse to ready up and put the decision on us to choose between claiming a default win or waiting for ages, but staying in spawn for the duration of the match was flat out insulting to everyone involved.
The match could’ve been salvaged with the admins forcing a decision on the golden cap, but due to your griefing there is no way to say who was the better team on Gullywash.
On top of that, cussing and name calling is bad mannered, and I don’t think anyone can say that you weren’t crossing the line at the end of the match ( http://logs.tf/173363 ).

The second part I want to touch is the discussion about allowing premiership players to play in lower divisions:
This subject has been brought up a few times in the past, and it’s a really intricate one. At one hand, the lower divisions are expected to be a breeding pond for lesser experienced players. The divisions are plentiful and are being set up with progress to higher divs (or fun play) in mind. To supplement that, we have no issue to let experienced players mentor lower division teams, nor do we force people to play above their expected skill level.

In my personal opinion: it’s nonsense to disallow players to join a lower division than their past ones. The player can have several reasons ranging from lesser commitment to the game to mentoring their new Epsilon from bottom to top. It is not feasible to expect that from everyone involved in the league.

TLDR;
Div 5 srs bsnss

way to respect your lower divs as a member of the staff

#tf2deadgg

anyway, you should’ve seen this coming, the only ridiculous thing is this forum and the fact that a game like this exists. Have you no fucking common sense? You consciously put a prem demo up against div 5 players because you wanted to win as a MERC. Div 5 srs business very yes because you seem to want to win it so bad as well

Holy fucking shit.


Last edited by skyro,

broder mirelin: get raped noobs

byte

brb popcorn + offering £300 for best team in div 5.

gogogog

Cheers

Byte

Stupid shit by über.

Spike Himself

TC

My team have played against Uber as well, last season, also in div 5, and we too were afraid that they would completely destroy us. MightyMe is not their only higher-div player (in fact we were more scared of Snoozer going sniper). Luckily for us it didn’t turn out so badly at all. At some point they started playing with a pyro, and MightyMe spent most of the game shooting needles, so needless (hehe) to say we beat them.

Anyway, anecdotes aside, both of you have already contacted admins about this, and we are already discussing this case (and extensively so!). I understand you are annoyed/frustrated/etc but I’m not sure if creating this thread was entirely necessary. Not to mention the fact that Uber aren’t the only ones that have, arguably, done something “wrong” in this match.

@Drotalion; Please read the rules! I can’t find the part where it says you can swap a merc after 10 minutes, or even accept a merc so long it is only for 10 minutes, or any other random conditions you can come up with! Indeed – under our current ruleset you either accept a merc or you don’t:

1.5 No mercs allowed unless your opponent agrees

“Mercs” or “ringers” are players that are not on the roster of your team. Teams may not use a merc at any time of a match unless their opponent has agreed to it. If a team does not have enough players for a scheduled match and want to use a merc, they must contact the opponent in time. If the opponent agrees, make sure a log of the agreement is taken and provided in the match comments. All mercs have to be registered on ETF2L. Teams caught using an unregistered merc, or a merc without their opponent’s permission, will receive a default loss and a warning.

A team can use up to a maximum of 2 mercs, even if the opponent would allow the use of more than 2 mercs. This includes players who are still shown as unverified on the team’s roster.

skeej

(ETF2L Donator)
UbeR
Fe |

Quoted from WeeD_SmokeR

@skeej
It’s not impossible
To begin with ETF2L should not allow teams with higher div players go to lower divs (its not just MightyMe in there)

Can you not read? There’s no rule necessary for that. Like I said, admins just have to weigh this more heavily when they seed the teams.

Secondly there could be a rule that would not allow higher div players play their main class on lower divs

Will never work. Most high div players are (almost) as good on their offclass as their main class; MM would probably still be a huge problem to you if he played scout or soldier. There is just a plethora of possible problems that arise with these kind of vague rules. Can a prem highlander sniper play scout in div5? Is he then not allowed to offclass to sniper at all? That’s just one example.

And that when a merc is accepted after some conditions(in this case play as the calss discussed on the match) if the team fails to follow this agreement there should be some kind of penalty.

This would open up the possiblity for teams to set retarded conditions to allow a merc. Just not plausible as a practical rule.

Quoted from Popcorp

But if you think about it, most Div 2+ players know how to play all 6v6 classes, so i would say Restrict Prem/Div 1 players to Medic in 3+ Divs lower their div

This is bullshit. If people want to play this game more casually, not tryhard etc, you want to rob them of that freedom? I happened to talk to Hycz yesterday, who switched to scout in a div4 team cause he just wants to play some chill 6v6 and not really commit to the game any further. You think he should be removed from that team and prohibited to play this season?

Conclusion: tough luck, there is no blanket rule that can apply here to fix your frustrations of playing vs good players. The only thing (imo) that can be done, is admins being more severe on high div players joining low div teams, and when doubting about the seed of said team, always pick the highest considered div for the seed. If the rest of the team is bad, they can blame themselves for choosing to play with the prem player. Better man up and tryhard!

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