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[WIP] cp_bazillion (rc5)
Created 30th September 2010 @ 17:49
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Quoted from Sketch
i did write you a proper explanation of why i thought the tower needed adapting but i deteted. sorry. dont like to leave feedback like that but mad.
Well that’s not really helpful, atm mid can be capped from both sides so you don’t have to have complete control of the enemy’s side to cap mid, you can just make sure they can’t block and you can cap, which leaves you with a forward spawn. It’s a mid that works as a choke somewhat, but it’s only a choke when the entire team is present, as would be the result of the start of a new round. So midfight isn’t just random deathmatch but actual teamplay you can go stupidly agressive ofcourse but that won’t consistently yield good results.
Quoted from Arnold
[…]
Do you really think it’s that simple? Perhaps you could split your team up? the defending team can’t defend house unless they use the roof of cp2 as a height advantage, which also leaves quite the distance so you can in theory avoid the spam and go in without popping, which basically results in your team being very close to cp2 without having to uber. Unless ofcourse you have a hard time pushing out from a house that gives you height advantage over the enemies that decide to hold close. (which would also mean that big choke has less enemies to defend)
Yukon last is no comparison because the cp is on the height advantage and the height advantage is located at the end divided by a very small bridge or a long route with a long choke. On bazillion the enemy can get on the height advantage easier since you can use the ramp, the defending team can not. The cp is also located inside the house, not on top, there is also no spawn close to the height advantage and no medpacks either. the only medpacks are inside the base.
On the other hand if they hold on top of house they can’t hold big choke close, so you can get behind by using the little allyway and maybe get a scout behind so they have to split their attention, you can aid the scout by supporting fire into the little allyway. Teamwork perhaps?
Just very basic stuff really, it’s way more complicated than that ofcourse, there are too many variables. I can’t possibly describe every scenario, if you really think the only options are the ones you just described that would just show you haven’t played the map enough. Or that the other teams are just better than you.
About last cp, if you are capping last and the enemy team wants to block when exiting spawn they have a hard time because they have no height advantage, if you can’t abuse that well i guess nobody’s to blame but you. I don’t see how the spawns are such a dealbreaker really. (spawntimes on last are the default ones so that would mean 15 seconds on average, an uber lasts 10 seconds, if they spawn and you haven’t wiped the enemy team enough to cap last than you haven’t pushed succesfully and you shouldn’t get a point)
What would be helpful is just uploading an stv demo so i can watch your matches where these problems occur, i can then decide if it’s really the maps fault or just the players.
Btw: how many times have you played the map? excluding the matches where you still had to learn the maps lay-out
Of course it’s not that simple. But everything can be countered with relative ease.
I’ve yet to see a team overcome roamer+demo on the roof, scouts right/main, combo small ramp yet, apart from a fluke. If anyone’s peaking house a few nades a rockets basically destroy anything the player was hoping to accomplish. Perhaps making the doorway higher and wider would help here.
If by some magic the combo do get to the roof, it’s simple to spam the sides with rockets or just the combo with stickies.
cp5 pushes can last up to 30 seconds, so it’s no wonder the enemy team is up and raring to go once the attackers finally get on the point. I once saw a last push go on for almost 60 seconds when I was mercing for a team, it was just cat and mouse by the end.
Things I propose: A railing on long ramp (so the combo can actually get up), a higher, wider door on house looking into 2nd, some sort of cover in big choke, a bigger distance between the fence and small roof, maybe another small route going left from big choke as you’re attacking (didn’t there used to be one?). It’s a decent map, and I think there’s a big chance everyone will love it, it’s just not there yet. By saying things like “Teamwork maybe?” and “well i guess nobody’s to blame but you” you’re practically admitting the map just shouldn’t be played in div5/6.
I’ll try to get a SourceTV demo of us playing it when I’m back on Steam, as a team we’re always looking to improve and maybe we’ll find out some things that’ll change our minds about the map!
I think I’ve played the map around 30 times. This counts PCWs, mixes, pickups and lobbies.
Quoted from Daleth
[…]
Of course it’s not that simple. But everything can be countered with relative ease.
I’ve yet to see a team overcome roamer+demo on the roof, scouts right/main, combo small ramp yet, apart from a fluke. If anyone’s peaking house a few nades a rockets basically destroy anything the player was hoping to accomplish. Perhaps making the doorway higher and wider would help here.
If by some magic the combo do get to the roof, it’s simple to spam the sides with rockets or just the combo with stickies.cp5 pushes can last up to 30 seconds, so it’s no wonder the enemy team is up and raring to go once the attackers finally get on the point. I once saw a last push go on for almost 60 seconds when I was mercing for a team, it was just cat and mouse by the end.
Things I propose: A railing on long ramp (so the combo can actually get up), a higher, wider door on house looking into 2nd, some sort of cover in big choke, a bigger distance between the fence and small roof, maybe another small route going left from big choke as you’re attacking (didn’t there used to be one?). It’s a decent map, and I think there’s a big chance everyone will love it, it’s just not there yet. By saying things like “Teamwork maybe?” and “well i guess nobody’s to blame but you” you’re practically admitting the map just shouldn’t be played in div5/6.
I’ll try to get a SourceTV demo of us playing it when I’m back on Steam, as a team we’re always looking to improve and maybe we’ll find out some things that’ll change our minds about the map!
I think I’ve played the map around 30 times. This counts PCWs, mixes, pickups and lobbies.
Honestly i just suggested teamwork because the scenarios you mentioned would only be a problem if you have no teamwork to speak of. I prefer to just watch the demo and i’ll comment after i’ve watched the game. Having a lastfight last for over 30 seconds sounds awesome but certainly doesn’t happen all the time, at least not the times i’ve played and specced.
You also contradict yourself by saying once you get on house you are easily countered by stickies and rockets to the side, yet when an enemy roamer and demoman hold on top they are impossible to counter?
The problems you mention just never occured when i played or specced decent level matches, they just rarely happen. I don’t know what else to say…
Last edited by Arnold,
I don’t know if it was mentioned ,but on the second cap of red where there is the ledge going up the roof, and there is small ammo pack under it, you can get stuck if you touch the ledge while walking under it to take ammo.
I personally like the map very much. I don’t see the problems Daleth is mentioning. Only thing is, that I find the map a bit dull at times.
One thing i miss in alot of custom maps, including yours (apart from them being really nice mapped) is the tactical gains you can achieve by perfect rollouts. On badlands, granary like maps you can do all kind of impressive rollouts that can gain you an edge on midfight. Which speeds up the gameplay a bit. And makes it fun to train.
I miss that in gully/braz. I don’t know if that’s because the maps are brilliantly made, or that we have played them so many times.
Last edited by Andee,
Personally i grew to love this map. This map should continue on the next season, and we should also get Snakewater. Not so sure why, but this map does kinda remind me of Badlands.
Thanks Dauk i’ll fix that
Andee, gully doesn’t really have a rollout to speak of because it’s pretty small (although there are some trickjumps, due to the size they often don’t make a huge difference). Baz on the other hand has a lot of potential I think it’s just a matter of time.
Thanks aswel vaskie, glad to hear that.
At first I didn’t like Bazillion but having played it a lot now I really like it. The only major criticism I’d make is that it’s incredibly hard to counter and take back cp2 when you’re on last. It’s even harder to take back than the Badlands’ spire. Maybe at a higher level this isn’t a problem? But in Division 6 it’s always a problem. Pracced the map maybe 12 times now and it’s always the same. You can sometimes wipe the whole enemy team when defending last and still struggle to take back cp2.
Only other thing I’d say is as a demo there’s an extremely fast left rollout to the cliff, which is excellent, but when rolling out right you’re limited by the position of the large health pack at mid. You do two jumps – out of main then right to the door and large health pack – but any possible third jump to the right side of the map isn’t really beneficial. There’s the small health bottle up high, but you’re too far from the cp to do much there, and taking the large health pack to the right of mid is almost suicidal due to enemy scouts. I guess maps shouldn’t be stacked for one class, but it would be nice to rollout faster right with a third jump and be able to replenish health.
Great work on the map though, really enjoy playing it!
Well, you can take it back but you need to be aware of not having your entire team stand on the point. keep a scout on it and have your soldiers hold the higher ground on the other side, also you don’t really need to keep a player at last the entire time, as soon as you can start capping you can let the player holding last move forward since last caps pretty slowly. Backcapping can happen but really it isn’t as much a problem as badlands or gully.
In that regard using a heavy or engi on last if you want to push out isn’t that recommended but that goes without saying.
Also something to keep in mind: you can backcap 2nd if you manage to get a scout behind, fairly effectively.
I am working on some small changes though so we’ll see.
Last edited by Arnold,
I do not know maybe it is intentional, but you can not throw pipes or anything over the hill that is to the right when you’re pushing from middle to enemies second thru left side. It jus bounces of air ;x
That is intentional Dauk, mainly due to optimization reasons
rc3 changelog
—————-
*removed main door on last
*fixed the one way doors launching you up
*removed the window alcove on last right of main door
*clipped the large pipes on left side attacking last
*made the crates attacking last left side a ramp (no more crouch-jumping)
*enlarged the small ramp onto last right side and the area around it moving the main stairs forward
*made a ramp of the left side (defending last perspective)
*removed railings from high platform on last
*removed pipes on last catwalk
*removed hole on last catwalk
*removed the first railing on dropdown (easier to jump up and to drop down)
*enlarged the second set of doors on the first spawn
*moved first spawn positions back
*removed the annoying railing on second balcony
*removed the second small doorframe on mid cavehouse
*clipped the areas on top of second
*added a railing so scouts can jump from cavehouse to cp2 catwalk going up to roof
That’s about it download is on tf2maps for now will provide a direct later.
http://forums.tf2maps.net/downloads.php?do=file&id=4570&act=down
Last edited by Arnold,
direct linkaz http://rotabland.eu/maps/map.php?id=2489&type=1
http://i.imgur.com/VDj07.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/oCvvr.jpg
Last edited by MR JOHNSON,
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