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KoTH is the new black
Created 23rd May 2010 @ 11:48
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After reading http://vanillatf2.org/2010/05/the-rant-team-deathmatch-2/ I realized KoTH maps are something more than just a random spamfest, and feature lots of versatility. The most important thing being the Hill forcing the players to push and be aggressive to win. Also, the timer makes games interesting until the end, something that 5-cp maps can fail with often ending up in 5-0 victories which isnt too interesting no matter how skillful the players are.
This is when I realized somebody who knows how to make a map (preferrably not me) should make a competitive focused KoTH map. The question is: what would make the perfect comp KoTH map? Viaduct, which is a map certainly not based on the comp gameplay, apparently works quite well, even having that chokey of a mid (imagine that mid on a 5cp, TIGHT!). With this in mind I figured that maybe the KoTH mid shouldnt be att all like the 5cp mid.
I’ve thought up a list of what a great comp map should feature, being a noob I’m pretty positive it’s far from complete.
– A few flanks, not too many
– Different possible startegies both for attack and defense
– Vertical play, height advantages
– Balanced placement of healthkits
– All the other mapping guidelines that work for all mapping.
TL;DR: Now the question is: how would the perfect KoTH map look like. I it Viaduct or something else? What features are needed to make a KoTH map suitable for comp?
I hope this leads to more comp KoTH maps being made, seeing as it is both easier to make than a 5-cp (at least when it comes to the very mapping), and also allows for more experimenting.
Last edited by choiie,
I always felt viaduct was a bad example of a KotH map, because it makes the point itself one huge chokepoint, and makes the enemy team always 100% aware of where the others are coming from. Sawmill has the opposite problem: it had a ton of entrances which are all reasonably fast, making it hard to know where to look. A good King of the Hill map should be a mixture of both: flankable, but not from every single direction.
I felt exactly the same! The chokeyness of Viaduct makes it useless in pubs, bat apparently it works quite well in comp play! Never having played a scrim on Viaduct its hard to tell, but apparently the lack of flanks makes it more interesting.
Quoted from choiie
I felt exactly the same! The chokeyness of Viaduct makes it useless in pubs, bat apparently it works quite well in comp play! Never having played a scrim on Viaduct its hard to tell, but apparently the lack of flanks makes it more interesting.
The lack of flanks makes full-frontal assault seem the only option, but the amount of places where the enemy can come from is large enough to force the holding team to spread out or retreat behind the point. If they spread out, a hole is easily forced for the Scouts to get through and we all know what happens when you have Scouts behind you and heavy classes in front of you. The lack of flanks also makes the battles more intense due to having to use brute force to make your way through.
Personally what I would like to see it for it to be a little less Sniper-friendly. Currently, a good Sniper will dominate a little too much to my liking.
Quoted from Buffalo Bill
Personally what I would like to see it for it to be a little less Sniper-friendly. Currently, a good Sniper will dominate a little too much to my liking.
+1 to that, IMO sniper is OP on this map simply because of how open the area is, and how good the raised cover is on the bridge.
Not sure what could be done to fix it really, but snipers have a massive advantage over other classes because they can easily stay well away from CQB.
So would some of you mind running some pugs on koth_stark and letting me know how you think it plays, I’m converting cp_stark into koth and want it to play well in 6v6.
http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=13124
Thanks. :)
Good sniper is OP on every map, if you can’t counter sniper then you must be bad at this game.
Quoted from octochris
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+1 to that, IMO sniper is OP on this map simply because of how open the area is, and how good the raised cover is on the bridge.
Not sure what could be done to fix it really, but snipers have a massive advantage over other classes because they can easily stay well away from CQB.
If you consider the game you had vs broder, it had a lot to do with your team’s positioning. I didn’t wanna point it out because we wanted to win the game. But, now that we aren’t enemies you’re more than welcome to pop by to get some tactics for it.
Quoted from torden
[…]
If you consider the game you had vs broder, it had a lot to do with your team’s positioning. I didn’t wanna point it out because we wanted to win the game. But, now that we aren’t enemies you’re more than welcome to pop by to get some tactics for it.
It was more general, our positioning when playing you was seriously fucked up by the fact that whenever I came out of cover wltrs would have my head in seven pieces, I’m used to being able to hold farther forward than that.
But yes, I’ll add you on Steam, always looking for help. :)
Chris, I’m happy to help you out with positioning on that map too. Got some pointers on it from the US guys and we had a fairly decent game against broder in the MNM, considering they are a lot better than us.
Quoted from crzfst
Good sniper is OP on every map, if you can’t counter sniper then you must be bad at this game.
viaduct is one of the only maps that has such cover for the sniper while beeing able to see atleast half the map and no routes to flank him.
Quoted from Exfane
[…]
viaduct is one of the only maps that has such cover for the sniper while beeing able to see atleast half the map and no routes to flank him.
It’s easy to flank the sniper, but if the sniper is skilled he would be able to take incoming enemies (scouts) at a distance with ease.
you can actually flank on this map. for example, you can soft push (less viable if vs good sniper) and distract for scout to go through one of the 4 channels (whichever is least guarded). you can also just pump spam into spam alley, they’ll clear it soon enough and send the scout through there (or the other way if they don’t retreat). once a scout is in spawn he’s free to go wherever.
you can also just jump him, and be ready to follow up with a quick push if you get some good damage in. i find the sniper here better than freight mid, because at least he’s in jumping distance.
Last edited by kuma,
i dont know… imo we have three very decent snipers in broder but often we just went x2 scouts anyway
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