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Anti Cheat - What would you improve?
Created 8th March 2010 @ 18:58
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Cheating is like cops and robbers.
Cops = AC team, Robbers = Cheaters.
One chases the other and once in a while they get lucky and get the fuckers.
How many people in this community actually know what cheats look like.
Imo it would be better if there was a small database showing the most common cheats.
This might cost a little money (to buy a cheating account or whatever), but it would be real effective if there was a small youtube clip showing of what something like this looks like.
In the end what would be better then having a community that atleast has some idea of what cheats look like.
You don’t need to use footage of formerly banned players (though it would be a good example). Just showing a video using mechanics of a site like “artificial aiming” would inform some players on what to look for (make a little vid about the most common cheats i.e.; aimbot, triggerbot). This way atleast the general public has some knowledge about the cheats available. Just to make it clear: THIS WOULD IN NO WAY HELP THE REAL CHEATERS OUT THERE.
It would probably stop players from shouting cheats and hax every single time someone has a nice clutch moment.
I also think that atleast 1 demo should be provided to the public per ban. You don’t have to add the ticks where this dude cheated or w/e, this to keep actual cheaters from learning things out of the demo to avoid future capture. Just providing the demo will keep everybody quiet, the player/clan knows what they got banned for, lock every topic about such demos though, cba reading through all kinds of bs “AMAGAD GUYS I WATCHED DEMO, HE’S JUST GOOD”. It will also provide some form of appeal, as they person/persons involved know of atleast 1 demo they got caught on.
Now the hard part is to provide a foolproof way of appeal. There is no way in hell somebody can put in an appeal by providing more and more demos of how they play. Has it come to anyones mind that a player can just cheat for 1 match and never do it again. Now I would still like that player to be banned on that 1 demo, he cheated, he has no life, gg. So the hard part here is to find a way where the “suspects” can provide proof/items that supports them about not cheating. Imo there is no safe way to do this, but I think it feels more then normal enough when someone knows what/where he got caught for. Same with a speeding ticket tbh, gives you date/location/crime.
Last thing to add; I really like the idea of having independent counsils or so. If both individually come to the same conclusion, there is very little chance that the wrong decision will be/has been made.
Quoted from Exfane
Last thing to add; I really like the idea of having independent counsils or so. If both individually come to the same conclusion, there is very little chance that the wrong decision will be/has been made.
Something like this with the ‘ballot’ style comments previously mentioned in the thread, whereby admins can’t see each other’s comments and thus will form 110% their own opinion, sounds like a very interesting idea.
Thanks for your great suggestions and for 99% of people treating this as a mature and useful discussion. There are many things I will be following up and I look forward to more ideas :)
has anybody thought about an mitigation for known cheaters if they support the AC-Team? i mean who knows more about cheating than an cheater himself?
If the cheater concedes that he has cheated and helps the AC-Team for lets say 3 months the etf2l ban gets decreased from 1/2 year to 3 or 6 months?! something like an social work instead of an ulimate ban.
even the police gets help from ex-gang members to get insider informations ^^
Quoted from GriZZly
has anybody thought about an mitigation for known cheaters if they support the AC-Team? i mean who knows more about cheating than an cheater himself?
If the cheater concedes that he has cheated and helps the AC-Team for lets say 3 months the etf2l ban gets decreased from 1/2 year to 3 or 6 months?! something like an social work instead of an ulimate ban.even the police gets help from ex-gang members to get insider informations ^^
Yeah I touched upon it briefly in the first post of the thread. It’s certainly something that we can look at, but I’d hate for people to get the impression that they could cheat in the league and if they get caught, they would only miss a few months because they can ‘help’ us.
the idea is good but has a drawbacks, we already thought about something like this in the past. but there is now way we can assure that our “helping hand” does his job right and is not being an ass out of spite.
Well I know it’s probably unrealisable with today’s demo system, but it would be nice to be able to “anonymize” a demo, so the AC team doesn’t know at all who they are inspecting when they check a demo. Just to avoid undesired bias, because I’m sure that even if you try very hard to be objective, you probably won’t have the same eye on a russian D5 player and on an established D1 player, which is bad.
That and having the demo reviewed by independant units, but that point has been raised already.
Quoted from Ran
Well I know it’s probably unrealisable with today’s demo system, but it would be nice to be able to “anonymize” a demo, so the AC team doesn’t know at all who they are inspecting when they check a demo. Just to avoid undesired bias, because I’m sure that even if you try very hard to be objective, you probably won’t have the same eye on a russian D5 player and on an established D1 player, which is bad.
That and having the demo reviewed by independant units, but that point has been raised already.
But I think someone in the next admin team, will try to cheat around with the demo(with settings to see who they watch, meh yes..)
Therefore the evidence should be shown in some sort of high resolution video(record with virtualdub maybe?) and make it a download for the ac admins.
But still, using a video as proof is still silly imo
Making people equal is a nice thing tho.
Quoted from baerbel
the idea is good but has a drawbacks, we already thought about something like this in the past. but there is now way we can assure that our “helping hand” does his job right and is not being an ass out of spite.
Ok thats true, but if he’s not helping enough he looses the change to get a ban reduction. You just kick him out of the AC-Team and he receives the full 1/2 year ban. I’ve he leaks insider informations or something like that he gets a perma ban, its clear that other admins need to check his work but there schould be at least 4/5 independet guys who watch the demos and the Headanticheatadmins(omg what a word) just get the informations of these 4/5 guys and the informations of the ex-Cheater. And the HACT make the final decision. So the ex-Cheater just gets the Demofile and writes an Report, so its just an additional information for the real AC-team?!
For the doubt of D2M, he (the ex-cheater) is offiacially known and convicted as cheater, the whole community knows it, even if we reduces his ban from 1/2 years to lets say 6 months, there is the questions which team would give him a place in there roster? And when we know he cheated we can always have an eye on him and he won’t become a second chance!!! So if he gets caught again he gets a lifetime ban.
Quoted from F2
I’d rather have 50 cheaters playing, than 1 innocent banned.
Hate to say it, but I’d rather see it the other way around. There is a tangible balance between them, and 50 is stepping over it a bit.
That spy is a double agent!
Cheaters would cheat on purpose to get inside information. In the meantime they make another account and play in the league while circumventing the system. You dont want those people in your anti cheat staff if you dont 100% trust them. Cheaters already are the most filty people on the internet who cant be trust.
Quoted from Ran
Well I know it’s probably unrealisable with today’s demo system, but it would be nice to be able to “anonymize” a demo, so the AC team doesn’t know at all who they are inspecting when they check a demo. Just to avoid undesired bias, because I’m sure that even if you try very hard to be objective, you probably won’t have the same eye on a russian D5 player and on an established D1 player, which is bad.
That and having the demo reviewed by independant units, but that point has been raised already.
I really support this idea.. Just taking up Quads demo here for a seconds (not supporting or against his ban on this one.) If for instance it was JH or Blind sniping on the pub server, would we have seen a ban, or would the AC crew at the time have rejected the demo, cause they are known as well established good snipers in the community…
Just saying i doubt they have the same view as Ran states here on a div 5/6 guy and an established div 1/2 player
Quoted from FluffY ZeuZ
[…]
I really support this idea.. Just taking up Quads demo here for a seconds (not supporting or against his ban on this one.) If for instance it was JH or Blind sniping on the pub server, would we have seen a ban, or would the AC crew at the time have rejected the demo, cause they are known as well established good snipers in the community…
Just saying i doubt they have the same view as Ran states here on a div 5/6 guy and an established div 1/2 player
It’s a good idea, but afaik there is no way for it to come to fruition.
Quoted from Waster
That spy is a double agent!
Cheaters would cheat on purpose to get inside information. In the meantime they make another account and play in the league while circumventing the system. You dont want those people in your anti cheat staff if you dont 100% trust them. Cheaters already are the most filty people on the internet who cant be trust.
k, but if all would think like that we could stop the banning and AC-stuff anyways because banning would not help anything, even if we ban these cheaters normaly they would always come back :p
and for the idea that the cheaters help the AC-Team or the etf2l & the Community, they wouldn’t get any rights, they would just get easy jobs to help admins i’m 100% sure there would be enough shitty jobs, where you can’t get insider informations ^^
Right, I only skimread the thread, but it all seems good, first off:
Quoted from Nigh
http://dblocker.didrole.com/ From Anakin :)
That could help out somewhat, AC programs in general, will not work, as they will be worked around, or drive people away from a league (ESL *cough*), however serverside blocking, as far as it can work, is a very good idea. Assuming that plugin has no issues, it should be tested out, and perhaps applied leaguewide. Valve could eventually integrate it into source, if it worked well enough.
My second thought would be that the AC Team needs to be more transparent, and perhaps slightly less heavy handed. If someone is banned now, I can’t help but get the impression that they stay banned even if nobody thinks they cheated any more, just to save face. This of course could be a product of opacity in regard to how the AC team operates, and so giving all players an outline of the process the AC admins go through to decide if a player should be persecuted or not is a good idea. The idea D2M said of making a small video for bans, or a proper written statement, would also clear things up, though hard feelings will still be present.
Of course, I’m in full support of NOT releasing evidence, simply because it helps the creators of hacks to make them more and more subtle, triggerbots being the easiest kind of bot to imagine this happening for.
Now, if we move onto the AC process, anonymous submission and vote should take place, to prevent people thinking “well, mr awesome AC admin who knows all has said he might be cheating, HE MUST BE!”, which is simple human nature. If a vote is nowhere near unanimous, then more evidence should be awaited. Furthermore, unless the evidence proves beyond reasonable doubt, no ban should take place. That means no “oh it looks kinda suspect”, but more “this is very indicative of hacks” – obviously this may have always been the case but the language in the recent post about reasons for banning quad was pretty “indefinite” – be clearer!
As Fluffy says, players should not be judged on their perceived skill level either, for instance, someone might just get lucky and pull off 20 headshots in a minute while pubbing, so what, everyone pulls of something amazing once in a while.
Finally, if possible, protecting player anonymity to prevent AC admins being douches and getting people they don’t like/want playing, banned (which COULD happen), would be a very good idea, and eliminate the problem with perceived skill.
Everything else has been said in enough detail IMO :)
Also 1 thing that needs to be made sure is the cheater-in-question isn’t on the friendslist of any AC admins.
In terms of the voting, imo it should be everyone anonymous as said votes for/against/abstain (since you should definitely not force someone to voice an opinion which is marginally one-sided to be of equal value as one which is absolutely certain). For the ideally larger AC team, the boundaries should be 100% = ban, 50+% = re-look. I dislike the idea of separate teams, why not get more people involved if you can?
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