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I completely understand your point but I dont like how you take yourself (admins) out of your own job leaving everything to an agreement between clans and only coming afterwards if people (oh and they will) whine.

But that was my point – if there is an agreement outside of the rules, we will not be dealing with any of the whining coming from a team breaking that agreement at all.

I understand what you’re saying – it would be lovely to have every single person in the league happy about every single thing. Unfortunately however, we’re all human (or at least pretend to be) and thus there will always be someone with a different opinion or a different understanding.

We’ll be looking at rules regarding weapons again this weekend, because the FaN appears to have been broken again from last night’s update, and I don’t believe that all of the other outstanding issues with weapons have been resolved yet.

I’m hopeful that we can find a solution to allow almost everyone to be happy, and those that aren’t happy – I invite you to pm me on IRC in #etf2l and we can have a nice chat, with you sharing your feelings with me :)

So you’re actually saying that you allow them to make own rules, with matchpage comments, but if the other team breaks these rules you dont give a shit. wp.

you might want to remove this from front page then “Any agreement between two teams regarding the use of mercs, wild cards, servers, unlocks, or any other kind of special arrangement must be recorded on the relevant match page. We cannot help you settle any disputes unless the issue has been confirmed by both teams on the match page. It is your responsibility to make sure you and your opponent follow this rule.”

The difference is, we hated it but we didnt go around asking our whole division to agree not to play it, and not play teams who used it. We awaited the admins descision, weather it was or wasnt influced by d1 players thats beside the point. Or maybe it is the point, talk with admins properly to get a compramise? Get intelligent people from D1 and other divisions perhaps?

It was influenced by D1, specifically Darn as he says, who went round contacting each team leader individually. It’s just the same but on the forums rather than IRC where it might bear more weight. That *is* the point, if the D1 players can’t help to mould decisions such as this then we’d still be playing with two demomen… well, we probably wouldn’t, because most people would’ve quit to do something less spammy like DDoSing QuakeNet.

What compromise can there be? The D1 players loathe playing against TDH et al, so what compromise would you suggest? Fix TDH? Sure – we waited for Valve to do that and they’ve barely touched it. The other alternative is using TFTrue or some such similar plugin, which could potentially have huge adverse effects on the community as a whole.

Your not just banning “shitguns” Dunc the plan is to attempt to play “vanilla” and ban everything post medic unlocks. Does “vanilla” include maps and huds and view models off? Or a gentlemans aggreement never to play maps they hate too, gravelpit (Poor PwR ;) )

If you read the original thread, most of the teams in there are actually suggesting playing to a pre-WAR! update standard. However, if that wasn’t a possibility for whatever reason (too complex to ban X, Y, Z and A, B, C weapons blah blah) then we’d prefer to play vanilla TF2 than TF2 in its current guise. I know Darn for instance prefers vanilla purely because it’s easier to organise than banning 7 or 8 specific weapons.

Nobody in D1 is arguing about anything other than the unlocks. New, good maps like Obscure are fucking excellent for the community. Any whine about say cp_gorge is specific to the individual and found in many places outside of D1.

If I understand correctly the admins put these ‘preliminary’ rules of limits and agreements to promote some further discussion and suggestions. Now everyone knows the viewpoint of most of the div1 teams.

Imo all this was to be expected with the 100+ pages discussion of the WAR update? Especially now that there still are limits to the unlocks for which I still didn’t hear a single sensible argument. It all feels like the admins don’t want to take a clear standpoint on the use of unlocks and just want to let the teams agree on it themselves.

The first part is correct skinnie. We actually wanted to get some feedback from players rather than the draconian rulesets that have appeared in previous seasons with little or no feedback being asked for or even listened to.

The second part, not so much. As I mentioned earlier – the provisional ideas were released 4 days ago… which was 29 days before the season was due to start. This is plenty of time to gather feedback, give Valve a chance to update the weapons and define some final rules which would be active at least a week before the season starts.

At no point have we wanted to stand back and not make decisions. EVERY season teams have been angry at us for not listening to players and not taking any actions. This season we’ve listened… We’ve given fixed maps. We’ve changed the way the sign-ups work so that it’s not just a rush to be in the first 330 teams or you’re screwed. We’ve asked for feedback on provisional rule ideas. – These are just 3 examples.

I may be slightly biased but I believe this is the most caring and open Admin team that we have had for a long time. We want to listen, we want to help, and we want to have the best season that ETF2L has ever had.

Thanks :)

There’s no doubt that etf2l improved and will keep improving with the current admin team. I’m very happy with the changes you made and about the willingness to listen to suggestions. I mean the fact alone that you are giving feedback here proves this.
Nonetheless I still don’t know why you are implementing limits to unlocks? From reading the etf2l forum I didn’t get the impression that the majority thinks limiting unlocks is the best thing to do. (I could be wrong tho)

you might want to remove this from front page then “Any agreement between two teams regarding the use of mercs, wild cards, servers, unlocks, or any other kind of special arrangement must be recorded on the relevant match page. We cannot help you settle any disputes unless the issue has been confirmed by both teams on the match page. It is your responsibility to make sure you and your opponent follow this rule.”

Jimmy added that to deal with teams that complain about mercs/match arranging/servers etc and have not recorded anything on the match page itself, meaning we cannot help. It was not intended to mention the word unlocks or have anything to do with that and I will ammend it immediately.

You’re well aware of how difficult it is to deal with situations, being an ex-admin yourself.

so stuff in matchpage doesnt mean anything, as it was only gentlemens rule. hell we can even use merc for every match even other teams disagree, as merc using is also under gentlemens rule usually. I’m not saying that other d1 teams start to use these guns in middle of a fight, but in lower divs that might happen and IF its recorded on match page that WE will agree to play with vanillaTF2 then you dont have a problem dealing with that matter.

the way i see it if everyone in div1 wants to play vanilla why should anyone from div2/3/4/5/6 even have a say in the matter?

NO sandman, NO tdh, NO bb

these are imo the unbalanced weapons.
i dont see any reason to ban something like the flare gun? the cloak and dagger? the sandvich?

a sandman hit will not let you shoot for 1-2 sec thats all and the scout can do it only every 15 sec – is not really a threat or?
with the direct hit you are left with 2,7 % of the rocket launcher splash volume, he can do 140 dmg at point blank range as compensation (removing mini-crits completely would have be better)
I needed to do over 500 dmg – this is like killing both soldiers and one scout alone – with the buff banner to get charged and if a soldier can gets so much damage alone the other team should have lost middle and second point anyway so its hardly op
but on the other side the equalizer can run up to 96 % of the scout speed and do 162 dmg – more like a not charged headshot and no one complains except me?

my team will not use tdh or sandman but I dont see its op and need a ban

a.) sandman: being unable to shoot / defend yourself is ridiculous, so -> ban!
b.) tdh, they fixed the mini-crits.. gratz.. still that weapon hardly needs any skill -> ban!
c.) lol at bb and your argument, dealing 500dmg is so easy.. and getting minicrits for 10 seconds is a joke.

you re the only person i ever saw whining about the equalizer.. the soldier is, i think we all agree, one of the weaker classes.. as both of the other unlocks are unbalanced(=shit), the equalizer thanks god gives him something new and useful. being able to run when lowhealth is an option as nice as being able to kill someone really fast..

someone must ve dominated you with a melee weapon reaaaallly badly :D