Forum

OMG i’m such a happyhippie!

It’s a lot of effort for everyone. Everyone has to forget old bygones and let them BE bygones. Both players and admins.

And also a lot of responsibility for admins too, because in a computer game league – you’re always gonna have VERY young ppl playing. You have to be above their childishness and remember that everyone was young and immature once, and everyone will be grown and mature once. And responsibility for players to let these children know that they’re doing something wrong. You want the forums to be a better place, so you help as well!

If you are able to be nice in the face of all this shit, you will get so much respect from players. I have a lot of new friends on steam that have chatted to me about this thread, letting me know that they (and their friends, sometimes communities) have been watching closely but not commenting. I think a LOT of people are reading this who haven’t necessarily posted but totally agree and have hope for anything that comes out of this :D

I also agree with some other people that what this forum needs is people with passion to help the community to moderate it.

Gryzor for example does a lot of work for etf2l. But in the past sometimes he was caught up with forum arguments and bullshit. Gryzor might be amazing at arranging leagues but it doesn’t mean he’s amazing at forum moderation. People demanding him to quit are basically asking him to quit because he can’t win friends so easily on a forum :P

You don’t use a hammer for a screw and you don’t use a screwdriver for a nail. Different ppl are better at different things. I say get some people in that want to make the forum a great place, and leave that job to them as much as possible. That might also help take stress of some of the admins so that they have more free time and are able to concentrate on the important league tasks and make them less stressed when dealing with ppl! :D

Hooray for intelligent discourse!

finally someone like vlad posts something like i often thought about.

I rarely post in the ETF2L forum because i also rarely see a point in it. For example: The Force-A-Nature thread… only nonesense and supid posts after the first pages…

I read the first Admin vs. Players thread and it started to derail on the very first page. then this second thread came up and now it seems to stay mature and people are talking in a friendly way with each other.

well, i could start repeating all the stuff what vlad has already said, but he already did a fine job telling us what his suggestions are. and there is a big point in what he wrote.

As for me, i often thaught that i could MAYBE open a thread like this. but in the end i came to the decision that something like that would have been no use at all, because of some certain people that i honestly exptected to derail it like it happened at the first thread. I wont call any names, no point in that right now.

Im often reading the forums of ETF2L and sometimes its quite enjoyable to have a look at normal discussions without flames and/or bullshit posted in it. but there are times (like that locked thread that disgusted me terribly) where I just think: “seriously: WTF?”

as i dont really want to let this become a WALL OF TEXT, just one more thing: if most people actually understood and then tried to do like vlad suggested it, ETF2L and its forums would have a nicer atmosphere than they have it right now. Hopefully something like this will happen.

Well, I flamed Gryzor once or twice so let me bury the hatchet.

@Gryzor: Thanks for putting in the work it requires to keep ETF2L running.
@admins: Keep doing your thing, guys.

/group hug

this is what i mean:

I see no solutions in your post, just more “do this, do that”. I also note that you are a big fan of the phrase “to be honest” — well, I got one of those as well. To be honest, you claim you “know my behaviour”, which I find most amusing, since I presume you base that on the number of text-posts I do to the forums.

I do not base them on text-post, however they add to it. Drawing conclusions is fancy, back to the drawing board.

I really think you need to re-evaluate your perspective towards the Internet, it sounds unhealthy to even BEGIN and compare it to a healthy, normal functioning society since that has not been true since 1989, when the only people having access to the ‘net was academics. I think I share the view with most others that people are acting VERY differently behind their screens compared to how they would act “IRL”, hence normal, sound, philosophies of structure do not apply.
This is ESPECIALLY true within communities like this. It actually DOES work in other projects I’m involved in (say, large open-source projects). But not here.

So you mean you are a perfect example of a well functioning community – the academics? Flinging fancy degrees have little to do with how you function with people.
It is true that people behave differently behind a computer screen, but your remedy is what? Collective punishment? If you truly belive that internet, and especially ETF2L has worse problems than the real world is very misguided.

I’m not really sure what message you’re trying to convey here. Are you trying to tell me ETF2L should yield to the flamers or that I personally should not engage them in the harsh manner I do? You also claim you see me “waste peoples time”. My admin-work consists of answering requests from people on IRC, writing on these forums, doing code/linux-related work and discussing issues with other admins. Anything I post is free to ignore and not read, and the rest of the work is nothing you ever see (unless you need help). Go figure. I’m not trying to belittle your views, I’m just very confused as to what end they serve.

What I’m trying to say is something that seems to be lost to many indiviuals in communities or in society in general – actions have consequences. I’m not saying flaming people are good, which you seem to be the way you are trying to twist my post into. Flaming is bad, but so is much else. Every person has an individual limit.
But if you start telling me that you should permanently ban a flamers team, you are on thin ice.

In the end, ETF2L have lost (and are losing) people who we can’t replace due to there not being competent enough people to replace them with (or people who ARE competent enough, would never want to join this project due to all they see are the endless amount of flames). This is a huge problem and the reason I suggested the harsh methods mentioned above, clan-ban for every player in a clan who host a flamer. It’s better to lose 80 players in a mass flame-ban than 1 irreplaceable ETF2L-admin who knows the ins and outs of over millions lines of code. That way, the rest of the 5000 or so registered and active TF2 players on this site could go on playing the game they chose to spend their spare-time on with their friends, in peace, and the ETF2L-project could continue to thrive instead of having to deal with all this bullshit.

Ah, yes, the ever lush and lasting “greater good”. Now we’re speaking morals here, and you are saying that an action is determined by its contribution to overall utility. Many times, it’s not that simple, since one person differs from another.
Moreso, who should be the one deciding what the “greater good” is, I suspect you are up for the part?
And noone is irreplaceble, in that case, it would be worse loosing one admin over the entire community.

It is sad that flaming is so bad and there is a problem recruiting admins, but is flaming an inherent behaviour of the human race – save for few “academics”, or merely some kind of valve for letting out steam, even though the recieving part is rarely pleased by it? A flame post can be both hostile and insulting, but so can regular posts. It is a fine line. What I’m trying to say that maybe if you look at youre actions, maybe there is a hint why there are these consequences?

ETF2L is about having fun with your friends once or twice a week, not skill or anything else. Don’t _EVER_ make the mistake to think ETF2L thinks it needs “skilled” players, it thrives on people having a “good game”. Nothing else.

When have I ever said or implied that? And on the other hand, you have nothing to say on how I should think or how I should feel. If I happen to think that ETF2L needs “skilled” players, you don’t have anything to say or do about it.
This happens not to be my standpoint anyway.

PS.
Also, regarding coding, why not start a etf2l paypal account that accept donations?
A bit could go to paying some coders?
I’d be glad to contribute a sum for the improvement of our site and server!

And is there a possibility to appoint forum admins that can clean up the threads, so our coders and other admins can do what they are supposed to do? It seems like a waste of time, when you, in your all open-source wisdom, academic spirit etc, are going around locking threads, when this can simply be achieved by lesser, more stupid people that are replaceble?

this is not a flame just a prime example of how one forum poster can easily antagonise another by quoting and then arguing every point. i mean come on it made sense just post back something like ‘yea spose your right in some respects i don’t agree completely but you have some valid points there. here are my suggestions’

no.. thats just called being a faggot

Of all the possible people who would quote something without even adding +1 i would never of ever guessed it would be klu, never in my life…

……….

*hug*