Forum

It seems to me the lack of discipline in holding flames etc is down not just to the players but also the admins- like Vlad has said, we’re all on the same team (to play a great game :D). If we lose sight of that and focus on the small things, then people get disheartened and we end up with flames. I’m not saying having a lot of passion is wrong, but the way it is expressed often is (e.g. personal attacks or assuming things) which leads to misunderstandings.

On the part of the admins, there doesn’t seem to be a ruleset by which all ad mins go by- this may not be the case but even in the two admins vs players threads i’ve seen different admin tactics- from getting involved with sensible comments and debate, to deleting a post and of course locking the thread. It seems to me that taking the middle ground- in this case deleting a post or two, has led to the best outcome: a generally good natured discussion on this thread.

So therefore my suggestion would be that admins should lead by example, have a discussion with yourselves as to what would be the best way to prevent the flaming and give us, and yourselves, a fair set of rules so that everyone is treated the same. Because right now, it’s not happening and there is too much inconsistency. Perhaps then people would have more trust and respect in the admins decisions, and instead of replying to a flame post, think about alerting an admin to its presence.

who deleted my post, im not an admin I can’t delete my own posts

Fragga has a point, there is no transparency (i can’t think of the the right word here), when admins do something we have no idea that something has been done- posts have been deleted and the thread is still open, but its just causing problems by not being more open about who has done what and why.

Edit- I thought Fraggas post actually did show that there is a lot of anger when things get done without there being reasoning for it being put forward.

Separating the league admins from forum mods (or differentiating the roles of different admins to us, the players if they exist) would help bring more oversight and include the community in what the admins do- most of us only see you if a) we have a problem or b) you close a thread or ban someone.

Edit 2: read Gryzors post below, better and easier suggestions which could make a real difference.

You had no right to remove my posts, as nothing in those posts consisted of flames and removing my posts because they were derailing the thread is a joke, you’ve totally abused your position as a moderator and made me lose confidence in your ability as an admin

Had you or one of your admin team not deleted my first post this wouldn’t of carried on, maybe you should get your fellow admins in order

No doubt you’ll delete this

Gryzor i must first say that you’ve done a GOOD JOB on this thread. But let me explain what my point was originally, because i feel that there is a greater meaning that might have been missed – which led to other great discusssions too.

Since this “self-moderation” has not happened for whatever reason (most likely they’re deterred from even reading the news-comments and forums any more — and I don’t blame them), obviously ETF2L will need to do SOMETHING about it. We will not let IDIOTS (yes, IDIOTS) destroy our league. This has now reached a point where enough is ENOUGH.

The problem with this is the mentality of both players and admins. Like i said in the first thread, attitude of admins seems to be like “This is OUR league” (in your own words as above, “OUR league.”)

I think this is a fundamentally flawed attitude to take for an admin (all of you) of a community like etf2l. You should be appealing to a sense of unity from everyone beginning with admins down to the lowliest div20 player. You made it for us, we come and play in it, and somewhere between your arrangements and our involvement etf2l was born.

So i think that’s something that could be handled a lot better by admins and you can take that as a suggestion – giving people the impression that we’re unwelcome in YOUR league when it’s us who make the league possible just puts people’s backs up, it makes them feel contrary to you right from the beginning. And that is certainly how i feel – i feel like you find me a kind of annoyance and i get in the way of your league. It’s like the satirical phrase – “I could run this country perfectly if it wasn’t for all the damn people in the way.”

I actually think admins should be above all of that bullshit. They should strive to maintain a neutral or friendly attitude at all times. Then, when someone is being an ass to you, STILL don’t be rude, just be factual and straight, even humble with them. “As far as i understand this situation, this is my decision, this is going nowhere now and spiralling into insults, if you have any further information please come to me another day and i will reconsider it.”
— This is my perfect admin. Nothing ever comes from being rude. There is no net gain from being rude.

But no one is perfect. I expect errors where someone is rude to someone else because they’re human and they have lives outside of etf2l, but those errors shouldn’t become the norm. (If i approach an admin now i am almost EXPECTING to have a hard time, to be treated like a huge annoyance, almost like basil fawlty treats his hotel guests.)

And you can see how this works, you can see it any time you like. When i approached an admin last night to ask him to leave a reply on my first thread chastising thse idiots for ruining my hippy thread by insulting admins, he was rude to me. No names will be mentioned here.

He got the wrong guy, it was an accident, but he was IMMEDIATELY rude to me:
ME: Hi
HIM: Hi, now it’s my turn is it?

In the very first sentence he’s rude to me and he shows that he’s JUST as bad as the people who insult admins. Even if he got the wrong guy, he was rude. And why? What possible gain was there? So he’s rude to me by accident and now i could go and flame an admin for being rude. Then he’d be more rude because i flamed him, and i’d flame him again.

I hope this helps you understand gryzor that it IS a case of give and take. Yes, there are a lot of flamers on this forum who have attacked admins. But i think the admins attitude have CREATED a lot of flamers too, in their harsh and impatient attitude towards members of etf2l.

Of course, admins will say “We are rude because you flame us”, and of course, players say “We flame you cos you’re ignorant” – and so on and so on and so on. No one remembers where it started, they both just remember being insulted.

What my original point is, is this:
If admins, from now, start being less rude and try to assume players mean well. And players, from now, start trying to present things more clearly and helpfully instead of flaming because they expect admins to be rude.

Then the whole thing will get better.

There’s my hippy view, but i hope i present it clearly, because there is value in what i say. Both parties are at fault, and both parties must put in effort to stop it. Banhammer is not the solution, because as you see from my example, you can get it wrong, and that’ll lead to more flames.

You may say it’s easy for me to say “be nice, be nice, never be rude” without being there myself. But i beg to differ, and i would accept your challenge and happily volunteer myself to help out with forum moderation and show you how it’s done.

Holy shit that’s a wall of text. Sorry. I expected the thread to die and i got carried away with how many people are up for a nice discussion!

You gave me eye cancer, but i still read it!

Any chance of less generalising? Not all of the admins are “evil” :(

With regards to yesterday vlad, I think the admin you spoke to had a pretty hard day – he seemed exhausted when he went offline. It was quite tough hearing and seeing some of the things that were said about us. You are right in what you were saying though.

Respect is earnt, not given. Both admins and players need to act in a friendly manner that befits both parties and allows us all to achieve a common goal. I hope that we can all start working together to improve the recent events and some attitudes that seem to be stuck in the stone ages :]

hehe, I wasen’t talking about the pub server Gryzor, I didn’t even know anything had happened? I was just comparing admin on pub servers and forums to the etf2l admin was all? :)