Forum

Even if flaming is an inherent behavior of the human race, that still does not mean that people have to accept it.
And there is no reason to act like that over small things like the seedings.

I never said flaming was an inherent behavior of the human race, insults are never nice.
And I agree that flaming over the seedings are unproportional, but it’s far from a small thing for many people, as it will decide what they do for the next ~3 months.

@sauna:

About “twisting” things around… That was not at all the message I tried to convey (as in elevating myself as a academic, omnipotent creature), I think you are so set in your mind that I’m trying to stomp around waiving the ban-hammer and what-not, that you can’t see past the trees. If this is not so, then I used all the wrong words and that’s a pity.

I’m actually not speaking about myself at all, I’m speaking about the ETF2L-project as a whole and my view on it. My views are mine alone, the ETF2L-creature lives on the front-page on this website and sometimes secretly whispers things in days and deneusbeers ears, giving the rest of us a sense of direction on what to concentrate on next.

However, when I mention “good game” above, that pretty much encapsulates what I’m trying to say regarding the whole issue. The “skilled players”-thing was out of context, agreed, but that was a simple mistake on my part trying to explain the view I personally see the ETF2L-project having.

I also find this whole thing about money and paying people to code undermining, I write this text here because I’m passionate about the project, not because I want to get paid. I get paid M-F 0800-1700, I get my reward on ETF2L when people are having a good time with their friends and things are running smoothly. I personally take great pleasure watching match-comments from DIV6-teams playing each-other, then writing “GG guys!” and “That was a lot of fun, well played! :)”, I also personally take great offense to people like you, trying to take the high horse and shine light on things that simply are not there.

But what disturbs me most with your reasoning:

This is not something that can be solved with money. You can’t buy motivated and passionate people with strong wills, great imaginations and interesting visions for the future. I also strongly disagree with the view that we could have “less important admins” that could “simply deal with the forums-trolls”. Everyone is equally important and necessary — and a DIV1 player is as welcome and needed as a DIV6 player. The difference between DIV1 and DIV6 is that DIV1 players spend A LOT more time with THIS particular computer-game than the casual, “for-fun”, DIV6 player. This is also true about admins, some spend A WHOLE lot more time on the project than others, but that does not make them or their views less crucial in a rational process of development.

The only “second-class” citizens in this community are the ones ruining the fun for others by cheating, flaming and otherwise trying to mess things for the rest of the people.

The best thing to do, would to just help out in telling people to stop with the unnecessary flaming. Strong opinions and rational arguments — those are welcome, “xxx is a cock!” and “-1″/”+1”-posts, are not. If you and some more people would donate some time to actually help out with this, I’m hoping this could actually be the last time we’d ever have to discuss this issue — and would be far more valuable than any money donations.

But what disturbs me most with your reasoning:

This is not something that can be solved with money. You can’t buy motivated and passionate people with strong wills, great imaginations and interesting visions for the future. I also strongly disagree with the view that we could have “less important admins” that could “simply deal with the forums-trolls”. Everyone is equally important and necessary — and a DIV1 player is as welcome and needed as a DIV6 player. The difference between DIV1 and DIV6 is that DIV1 players spend A LOT more time with THIS particular computer-game than the casual, “for-fun”, DIV6 player. This is also true about admins, some spend A WHOLE lot more time on the project than others, but that does not make them less important or their views crucial in a rational process of development.

The only “second-class” citizens in this community are the ones ruining the fun for others by cheating, flaming and otherwise trying to mess things for the rest of the people.

The best thing to do, would to just help out in telling people to stop with the unnecessary flaming. Strong opinions and rational arguments — those are welcome, “xxx is a cock!” and “-1″/”+1”-posts, are not. If you and some more people would donate some time to actually help out with this, I’m hoping this could actually be the last time we’d ever have to discuss this issue — and would be far more valuable than any money donations.

First of all, I agree that flaming is damaging to the community and a strain on the ones organizing – but that your answer for it, i.e. banning the entire team, is a rushed and unproportional response that would generate tons of “X IS A COCK” – posts.
And saying you can’t buy “motivated and passionate people with strong wills, great imaginations and interesting visions for the future” is just bull. What about scientists, doctors, lawyers, screenwrites, architects, painters, carpenters etc etc?
Saying that a certain kind of people can’t be directed with money is bullshit. To have someone take money for a service is not a dirty thing, that’s how the world works. If you in ETF2L doesn’t have any skilled people who can code the site – hire one! I’d be glad to help out with payment. Saying someone is more passionate or has more imagination when it comes to creating a site that can support say 500 teams instead of 330 or make certain forum elements (example send PM or delete a certain post) is just not true. There is a differnce between paid work and charity work, but you can’t say people do a better job here or there.

And I might have been a bit strong in my words on this point in my last post but:
Someone who would be a forum moderator would not be a second class citizen. It’s called organization. Go no further than a hospital – you have nurses and doctors, janitors, secretaries etc etc. They don’t all do the same work, becuase it’s not needed.
Still, you need it to keep an organization, to spread out the workload to the more fitting people. Saying that someone is a second class citizen because they do this or that work is just wrong. There is a job for everyone and you’re not worth less of a person if you clean hotels than if you work as a hospital nurse – you all do your part of a functioning society.
If you feel that the ETF2L coders has too little time to code your stuff because of forum moderation is taking it’s toll – hire a forum moderator! That’s how the world works, ETF2L is not a fairytale where someone who has special skills in coding is a bad person because someone else moderates the forums.

I shall take Jones advice and just agree that Sauna and me disagree on a number of issues and leave it at that.

(EDIT: I’d just like to point out Jones, that I too have been playing TF at a high level (even winning this league back in the days) — I know how much hard work is put into it (because it really IS a lot of HARD work) and I also know the feeling when all that hard work pays off — it is INDEED fun. So, I’m sorry I came across as segregating DIV1 with DIV6 in that particular manner).

And to fragga, even if you think TF2 is a “dying game”, the ETF2L will live on, as the concept has lived on for over a decade. From Quake Teamfortress, Quake 3 Fortress, Enemyterritory Teamfortress to Teamfortress 2. I see no reason to try and “take things out with you” if you believe this to be a sinking ship. 80 extra spots in S6 and 80 on the waitinglist compared to last season would suggest otherwise, though. (EDIT: Seems like fragga removed his post, so nevermind)

Gryzor tends to come across as an ass at times, but he really does deserve much more respect than he gets with the work he does put into the league.

+1 for both the initial posts from Vlad and Jones for peace keeping :P

edit: I didn’t know it was possible to remove your own posts?

<3

EDIT: Seems like fragga removed his post, so nevermind

You cant, you know you can’t, by saying this you’re either not thinking or trying to be a smartass

Nothing I said in that comment was a flame, nothing