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hehe :) pcws are a good way to practice vs top teams.

and as for the elitist comment, i dont mind helping teams out, sitting on mumble with them and talking them through their gameplay, what they’re doing right and/or wrong, or just give demomen my demos and give them some advice. i just dont like having to waste an hour playing vs a team when the outcome is already determined before it starts..

oh yeh, i remember back in the days in vale “div2? oh cba, rather go cod4” :D

with that logic there wouldent be much of a league. there are games in every div that are more or less over before they start, still they have to be played. +1 to supreme being, only way to get better is to play better teams in matches that mean something. havent div1 teams been dying for a bigger flora of HIGH clans? im sure ive read that several times on these forums.

..ofc we want more highskilled teams, but i dont think the current league format is going to help that. lower div1 teams get raped in div1 and then demoralized and leads to them folding (someone else mentioned this in one of the locked threads).

might be so…but if teams get demoralized by being beat by top4 teams its their prob….thats gotta be mindset rather than structural issues. i think the suggested format will completly remove the oppertunity for aspiering teams to get that experience.

playing teams that are skilled higher than you won’t make you play better.

You’re better off playing against a team you can barely win against and try to rape them instead of wasting high level teams time.

Stop trying to blame us for you just being bad at the game, seriously. watch demo’s and learn from them, put some effort into it. High level teams are far from elitist.

I see no solutions in your post, just more “do this, do that”. I also note that you are a big fan of the phrase “to be honest” — well, I got one of those as well. To be honest, you claim you “know my behaviour”, which I find most amusing, since I presume you base that on the number of text-posts I do to the forums.

I really think you need to re-evaluate your perspective towards the Internet, it sounds unhealthy to even BEGIN and compare it to a healthy, normal functioning society since that has not been true since 1989, when the only people having access to the ‘net was academics. I think I share the view with most others that people are acting VERY differently behind their screens compared to how they would act “IRL”, hence normal, sound, philosophies of structure do not apply.

This is ESPECIALLY true within communities like this. It actually DOES work in other projects I’m involved in (say, large open-source projects). But not here.

To try and psychoanalyse a bunch of text on top of that, is really strange.

I’m not really sure what message you’re trying to convey here. Are you trying to tell me ETF2L should yield to the flamers or that I personally should not engage them in the harsh manner I do? You also claim you see me “waste peoples time”. My admin-work consists of answering requests from people on IRC, writing on these forums, doing code/linux-related work and discussing issues with other admins. Anything I post is free to ignore and not read, and the rest of the work is nothing you ever see (unless you need help). Go figure. I’m not trying to belittle your views, I’m just very confused as to what end they serve.

In the end, ETF2L have lost (and are losing) people who we can’t replace due to there not being competent enough people to replace them with (or people who ARE competent enough, would never want to join this project due to all they see are the endless amount of flames). This is a huge problem and the reason I suggested the harsh methods mentioned above, clan-ban for every player in a clan who host a flamer. It’s better to lose 80 players in a mass flame-ban than 1 irreplaceable ETF2L-admin who knows the ins and outs of over millions lines of code. That way, the rest of the 5000 or so registered and active TF2 players on this site could go on playing the game they chose to spend their spare-time on with their friends, in peace, and the ETF2L-project could continue to thrive instead of having to deal with all this bullshit.

ETF2L is about having fun with your friends once or twice a week, not skill or anything else. Don’t _EVER_ make the mistake to think ETF2L thinks it needs “skilled” players, it thrives on people having a “good game”. Nothing else.

Dunc wrote:

Should make me an admin. That’d sort everything.

If this is the solution, then +1

I see no solutions in your post, just more “do this, do that”. I also note that you are a big fan of the phrase “to be honest” — well, I got one of those as well. To be honest, you claim you “know my behaviour”, which I find most amusing, since I presume you base that on the number of text-posts I do to the forums.

I do not base them on text-post, however they add to it. Drawing conclusions is fancy, back to the drawing board.

I really think you need to re-evaluate your perspective towards the Internet, it sounds unhealthy to even BEGIN and compare it to a healthy, normal functioning society since that has not been true since 1989, when the only people having access to the ‘net was academics. I think I share the view with most others that people are acting VERY differently behind their screens compared to how they would act “IRL”, hence normal, sound, philosophies of structure do not apply.
This is ESPECIALLY true within communities like this. It actually DOES work in other projects I’m involved in (say, large open-source projects). But not here.

So you mean you are a perfect example of a well functioning community – the academics? Flinging fancy degrees have little to do with how you function with people.
It is true that people behave differently behind a computer screen, but your remedy is what? Collective punishment? If you truly belive that internet, and especially ETF2L has worse problems than the real world is very misguided.

I’m not really sure what message you’re trying to convey here. Are you trying to tell me ETF2L should yield to the flamers or that I personally should not engage them in the harsh manner I do? You also claim you see me “waste peoples time”. My admin-work consists of answering requests from people on IRC, writing on these forums, doing code/linux-related work and discussing issues with other admins. Anything I post is free to ignore and not read, and the rest of the work is nothing you ever see (unless you need help). Go figure. I’m not trying to belittle your views, I’m just very confused as to what end they serve.

What I’m trying to say is something that seems to be lost to many indiviuals in communities or in society in general – actions have consequences. I’m not saying flaming people are good, which you seem to be the way you are trying to twist my post into. Flaming is bad, but so is much else. Every person has an individual limit.
But if you start telling me that you should permanently ban a flamers team, you are on thin ice.

In the end, ETF2L have lost (and are losing) people who we can’t replace due to there not being competent enough people to replace them with (or people who ARE competent enough, would never want to join this project due to all they see are the endless amount of flames). This is a huge problem and the reason I suggested the harsh methods mentioned above, clan-ban for every player in a clan who host a flamer. It’s better to lose 80 players in a mass flame-ban than 1 irreplaceable ETF2L-admin who knows the ins and outs of over millions lines of code. That way, the rest of the 5000 or so registered and active TF2 players on this site could go on playing the game they chose to spend their spare-time on with their friends, in peace, and the ETF2L-project could continue to thrive instead of having to deal with all this bullshit.

Ah, yes, the ever lush and lasting “greater good”. Now we’re speaking morals here, and you are saying that an action is determined by its contribution to overall utility. Many times, it’s not that simple, since one person differs from another.
Moreso, who should be the one deciding what the “greater good” is, I suspect you are up for the part?
And noone is irreplaceble, in that case, it would be worse loosing one admin over the entire community.

It is sad that flaming is so bad and there is a problem recruiting admins, but is flaming an inherent behaviour of the human race – save for few “academics”, or merely some kind of valve for letting out steam, even though the recieving part is rarely pleased by it? A flame post can be both hostile and insulting, but so can regular posts. It is a fine line. What I’m trying to say that maybe if you look at youre actions, maybe there is a hint why there are these consequences?

ETF2L is about having fun with your friends once or twice a week, not skill or anything else. Don’t _EVER_ make the mistake to think ETF2L thinks it needs “skilled” players, it thrives on people having a “good game”. Nothing else.

When have I ever said or implied that? And on the other hand, you have nothing to say on how I should think or how I should feel. If I happen to think that ETF2L needs “skilled” players, you don’t have anything to say or do about it.
This happens not to be my standpoint anyway.

PS.
Also, regarding coding, why not start a etf2l paypal account that accept donations?
A bit could go to paying some coders?
I’d be glad to contribute a sum for the improvement of our site and server!

And is there a possibility to appoint forum admins that can clean up the threads, so our coders and other admins can do what they are supposed to do? It seems like a waste of time, when you, in your all open-source wisdom, academic spirit etc, are going around locking threads, when this can simply be achieved by lesser, more stupid people that are replaceble?