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Division/Tiers System
Created 12th September 2017 @ 19:23
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Quoted from Lupus
And what happened to that “PREM” team? we got 4 points in the season because it was a new unstable project people left all the time, people raged and it was not even that fun to play. This is the first example of a not so short list of prem teams . If you still think tiers are better at doing the job of beeing a step ladder for what could potentially be good teams . Think again.
Season 19 had 7 teams in prem where from 2 died
Season 18 had 8 teams where the bottom team got 2 points
Season 17 had 1 team drop and 1 team get 2 points
And so on and so forth. It isnt related to the system.
But most importantly, div system gives more Placement medals to players 8^)
I’m not saying its a new problem i’m saying its an INCREASING problem because of the tier system also could you pull up the teams you are refering to.
I’m gona say it bluntly as possible so there are no misunderstandings . There were 6 divs currently there are 4 tiers.In div 6 you learned the basics of the game even if you were super bad at dm .In d5 your dm was improving but still not great and you would still be improving on how to play 6v6 . You would improve these things untill you reached d3/d2 where strats and having good team work really mattered in order to win.Div 1 is where you really had to play in sync with your team mates because the smallest mistakes could cost you a round or even game loss. And Prem was d1 x2 in terms of that. Atleast thats how i see it to this day. having only 4 tiers makes people think that the most important thing is dm not team work and the thing they strive for is to find people with better dm not with a bigger brain( im saying most not all). The real reason why there are so many teams that drop out of tiers.This is the last post I’ll make on this topic because there is nothing I can say to change admins minds. I’m not really that well spoken or written or whatever you call this so this might seem sloppy but its how i feel so yeah.GG NO RE.
#bringbackdivs
Quoted from Aoshi
[…]
Yeah, now you have those preseason playoff projects like yours that die 4 days after they’re made.Both Round Robin and Swiss has its pros and cons.
Round Robin currently stands out as the worse system imo. Mainly for the lower tiers.A random straw poll doesnt really mean anything. You cant see who voted on it, could be pubbers for all we know and there currently is very little amount of votes on it.
If you don’t believe the voters to be serious and/or you want more people to vote I would suggest ETF2L to put on an “official” vote on the main page or something with an actual post/proposition such as trying out for a season like Lupus said or perhaps do some sort of mix up between divs and tiers. For instance having prem, div1, div2, div3, div4 and an open tier. Added to this a playoffs system at the end of the season to figure what teams were the best in their own divisions
Quoted from MoistPenguin
[…]
You can still play sunday, the only day you cannot play is saturday, sundays have always been an available play day for swiss games. It is teams choice to not play sundays
Yes you can play sunday, but you won’t get any scrimtime and you only know your matchup 20h in advance, hence the reason why almost no teams are playing on sunday anymore.
Quoted from MoistPenguin
[…]Bye weeks are not ideal, however the swiss system deals with dropped teams far far better than Round Robin. In RR if one team drops every other team gets a week where they do not play. Whereas if a team drops in swiss ideally only one team gets affected by it, and this leads to teams playing more games.
It’s still possible that up to a third of the teams in a tier have a bye-week + it’s unfair. It’s a minor upside for the swiss system imo. I rather have a fair competition.
What are the other pro’s for the swiss system, for higher tiers/divs? I honestly fail to see them…
Quoted from Kaylus
[…]
If you don’t believe the voters to be serious and/or you want more people to vote I would suggest ETF2L to put on an “official” vote on the main page or something with an actual post/proposition such as trying out for a season like Lupus said or perhaps do some sort of mix up between divs and tiers. For instance having prem, div1, div2, div3, div4 and an open tier. Added to this a playoffs system at the end of the season to figure what teams were the best in their own divisions
Issue being that a lot of people dont know how both systems work. What both hold as pros and cons and how it would affect their scheduling or organization. Mainly newer players that didnt play more then 2,5 years ago.(We’ve been running swiss for a while now)
Running a mix of them is an option but not preferred.
The chance that round robin is even close to as well organized as the current swiss systems is very low so I would prefer staying away from it and focus on some other projects related to ETF2L. Once some of the other items are taken care of maybe we can revisit this is more depth and actually spend a decent amount of time on getting it right rather then having a half-hearthed attempt.
Quoted from BeS
What about doing the current system for open and mid and the old one for div 1-2?
^
Quoted from Aoshi
[…]
Issue being that a lot of people dont know how both systems work. What both hold as pros and cons and how it would affect their scheduling or organization. Mainly newer players that didnt play more then 2,5 years ago.(We’ve been running swiss for a while now)
Running a mix of them is an option but not preferred.The chance that round robin is even close to as well organized as the current swiss systems is very low so I would prefer staying away from it and focus on some other projects related to ETF2L. Once some of the other items are taken care of maybe we can revisit this is more depth and actually spend a decent amount of time on getting it right rather then having a half-hearthed attempt.
Well as the admins decided to use swiss system they must know how it works therefore they could explain to everyone how it is better compared to divs system or am I mistaken ?
Also when the divs system was used the new players didn’t ever use the swiss system either so I wouldn’t use that as an argument
tier = every game is exciting
divs = one game is exciting
What I liked about the old system is that you could see your performance progress through the divisions more clearly.
Also it kind of set “rules” on how good people were in a division. These days the average quality of the teams in a tier can vary by quite a bit from season to season.
That said, I believe this current system is a lot better.
Last edited by Collaide,
Quoted from Kaylus
[…]
Well as the admins decided to use swiss system they must know how it works therefore they could explain to everyone how it is better compared to divs system or am I mistaken ?
Also when the divs system was used the new players didn’t ever use the swiss system either so I wouldn’t use that as an argument
Games are scheduled way better and easier thanks to the current system.
Wildcards caused matches to get delayed by a lot, sometimes even forcing teams to play 3 officials in one week. Teams could deliberately fuck over other teams using this system.
Team leaders are horrible at organizing their officials.(Mainly from HL organization experience)
Team leaders not responding or not knowing when they can play for the longest time and or wildcarding games right before the match was supposed to start wasn’t an uncommon case.
Drops are less relevant on the overall tiers health. In round robin there were often groups with drops, similar to how it currently is in swiss. The amount of drops is around 20%. So 1.6 teams/group on averages. This of course varying per division. This added with the 10% of the matches that are default win, just adding these in as an overview as defaults are still equally present, but this ads another 0.7/7 matches that go unplayed. Giving us a nice total of 2.3/7 matches that dont get played.
So your average season isnt even 5 matches even though teams have wildcards to make sure that they dont have to give defaults.
I’ll give you the example calculation here for season 27.
We had 15% of the matches that were default wins. So around 1.05/7 matches. This added with the 0.012% that were bye weeks we come around a nice total of 1.134/7 matches not getting played. That is more then 1 match additional/team.
Next up seeding, within divisions admins spent full evenings on trying to get the seedings to works. Of course that isnt enough. Teams still overestimate themselves and still spiral down into seasons where they dont win a single match. The lower you go in the divisions, the harder it is to seed as there are more unknown players.
Due to swiss having large enough groups to make it possible for teams to get seeded after every week and thus making it possible for the matches to be more balanced and maintain that balance across the season.
Next up is the administration area on the site. I’ll only touch on this roughly as not all of you will be interested in it or it isnt really relevant to the players. But first things first, scheduling. In swiss everything gets done automatically. You have the occasional complaint that the match isnt on the wanted day of the team but it is very minimal compared to how it used to be. In round robin all matches had days manually set by admins on the schedule deadline. In the case no date was mentioned on the match page the date was set almost at random. This happened to around 20% of the matches. Due to this process it would easily take 4-6 hours for an admin to go through the matches in the hope that the empty ones still had a suitable time.
Every week there is a result deadline. This is very structured and organized making it easy for both players as well as teams to follow it up. Now you have 1 result deadline which is when it has to be in. Missed it, your match get nullified or you get a minor warning if you submitted it too late. Once the deadline is reached an admin can go over all the matches at once and hand out missing media warnings in once swoop. This takes about an hour.
The old system had 2 result deadlines. First one being the one of the week, so the same as swiss. But also one 72 hours after the match was played. This added an additional factor that teams often made mistakes against.
So overall there are a decent amount of pros. I could continue but making this post even longer isnt really necessary. The league with swiss is more structured, more organized and had better balanced matches with swiss.
Now lets address the issues with it. first things first is the low amount of teams in Highlander. This causes there to be no option to run a 7 week swiss system. (You would need at least 32 teams normally but you can go a bit lower). For 5 weeks this turns into 16 teams minimum but this will cause the season to run slightly too short causing that getting into playoffs is almost luck based. We’re discussing solutions for it but as the next highlander season is still a couple of months away we can see how we want to approach it once it gets closer.
Default wins and teams not dropping from the season even though they are dead is a very common occurrence and is one of the reasons why the default loss counter is so high. Teams sitting in a tier and just getting 3 default losses i a row happens very frequent sadly enough.
Moving forward we will look for a better solution but it isnt going to be here for another while as it needs to get taught through and managed very well. But that is an item for the future where we will slowly work towards while focusing on the present and making sure our current system works and runs as best as it can.
Quoted from Kaylus
Also when the divs system was used the new players didn’t ever use the swiss system either so I wouldn’t use that as an argument
A global site switch with newsposts and information about how everything works up into the details is what made the switch to swiss go well. Having a couple of groups switch and not really enough information regards to it readily available for teams that get thrown into it would make it a living hell. Making all of those information posts and or updating them from 2.5 years ago would take quite a bit of effort and time. So just “testing it” isnt really what you can just do for a season as the first impressions would most likely be very bad.
Edit* The numbers I used for the representation of the matches going un-played in round robin where with worst case scenarios. This of course wasnt the case in reality and would probably mean that the it would go down to around 1.6/7 matches. There is no easy way for me to crunch the numbers on it though.
Last edited by Aoshi,
Quoted from Aoshi
[…]
Games are scheduled way better and easier thanks to the current system.
Wildcards caused matches to get delayed by a lot, sometimes even forcing teams to play 3 officials in one week. Teams could deliberately fuck over other teams using this system.
Team leaders are horrible at organizing their officials.(Mainly from HL organization experience)
Team leaders not responding or not knowing when they can play for the longest time and or wildcarding games right before the match was supposed to start wasn’t an uncommon case.
The system makes it easier but is less flexible.
Wildcards’s point is to cancel the official due to forseeen or unforeseen team/personnal issues. So last minutes wildcards happened not to fuck over but to prevent having to play the official with mercs or not being able to have enough players at all (sometimes could be to fuck over the other team sure)
Quoted from Aoshi
[…]
Drops are less relevant on the overall tiers health. In round robin there were often groups with drops, similar to how it currently is in swiss. The amount of drops is around 20%. So 1.6 teams/group on averages. This of course varying per division. This added with the 10% of the matches that are default win, just adding these in as an overview as defaults are still equally present, but this ads another 0.7/7 matches that go unplayed. Giving us a nice total of 2.3/7 matches that dont get played.So your average season isnt even 5 matches even though teams have wildcards to make sure that they dont have to give defaults.
I’ll give you the example calculation here for season 27.
We had 15% of the matches that were default wins. So around 1.05/7 matches. This added with the 0.012% that were bye weeks we come around a nice total of 1.134/7 matches not getting played. That is more then 1 match additional/team.
you’re saying there is as much drops and default win in both system so I don’t really see how it matters if you keep the playoffs system at the end of the season
Quoted from Aoshi
[…]
Next up seeding, within divisions admins spent full evenings on trying to get the seedings to works. Of course that isnt enough. Teams still overestimate themselves and still spiral down into seasons where they dont win a single match. The lower you go in the divisions, the harder it is to seed as there are more unknown players.Due to swiss having large enough groups to make it possible for teams to get seeded after every week and thus making it possible for the matches to be more balanced and maintain that balance across the season.
I understand how easier it is for admin to create the seeds that’s why alternative such as keeping open and mid tier works because the amount of work for the admins/the number of dropping teams makes relevant but then when it comes to high seeds the problem decrease drastically.
Quoted from Aoshi
[…]
Next up is the administration area on the site. I’ll only touch on this roughly as not all of you will be interested in it or it isnt really relevant to the players. But first things first, scheduling. In swiss everything gets done automatically. You have the occasional complaint that the match isnt on the wanted day of the team but it is very minimal compared to how it used to be. In round robin all matches had days manually set by admins on the schedule deadline. In the case no date was mentioned on the match page the date was set almost at random. This happened to around 20% of the matches. Due to this process it would easily take 4-6 hours for an admin to go through the matches in the hope that the empty ones still had a suitable time.Every week there is a result deadline. This is very structured and organized making it easy for both players as well as teams to follow it up. Now you have 1 result deadline which is when it has to be in. Missed it, your match get nullified or you get a minor warning if you submitted it too late. Once the deadline is reached an admin can go over all the matches at once and hand out missing media warnings in once swoop. This takes about an hour.
The old system had 2 result deadlines. First one being the one of the week, so the same as swiss. But also one 72 hours after the match was played. This added an additional factor that teams often made mistakes against.So overall there are a decent amount of pros. I could continue but making this post even longer isnt really necessary. The league with swiss is more structured, more organized and had better balanced matches with swiss.
On the matter of the administration the solution seems easy. If you can call this a problem to be fair. But the ‘problem’ is not the default date but more the weeks starting saturday instead of monday. Keep the current system has team leaders must give a default date to play their officials while still having the liberty to switch it.
The swiss system is more organized and structure and so much not flexible. The matches get more balanced with time but often one can see unbalanced matches thanks to the bye week. And it may be more balanced but it loses purpose for 75% of the teams. For instance in high last season 8 teams over 32 went into playoffs. after losing 2 games in high you are pretty certain not to reach playoffs so what’s the point of even trying. You get the top of each tiers balanced but the bottom of the tiers are just teams losing interests.
Quoted from Aoshi
[…]
Now lets address the issues with it. first things first is the low amount of teams in Highlander. This causes there to be no option to run a 7 week swiss system. (You would need at least 32 teams normally but you can go a bit lower). For 5 weeks this turns into 16 teams minimum but this will cause the season to run slightly too short causing that getting into playoffs is almost luck based. We’re discussing solutions for it but as the next highlander season is still a couple of months away we can see how we want to approach it once it gets closer.Default wins and teams not dropping from the season even though they are dead is a very common occurrence and is one of the reasons why the default loss counter is so high. Teams sitting in a tier and just getting 3 default losses i a row happens very frequent sadly enough.
I don’t think 6v6 and 9v9 should be address the same way though. Like you said there are less teams with more players to manage. Not to mention the lack of seriousness for plenty of them making highlander look ridiculous sometimes.
Quoted from Aoshi
[…]
Moving forward we will look for a better solution but it isnt going to be here for another while as it needs to get taught through and managed very well. But that is an item for the future where we will slowly work towards while focusing on the present and making sure our current system works and runs as best as it can.
A good system seems to be:
Division system for prem/high teams, keeping mid/open tiers so the amount of work for the admins doesnt change or barely
reinstate wildcards for the division system
Increase the numbers of team making it to the playoffs so the lowest team actually play to get into it and play the whole season with a purpose like the NBA does; 50% of the div/tiers
[…]
Quoted from Aoshi
[…]
A global site switch with newsposts and information about how everything works up into the details is what made the switch to swiss go well. Having a couple of groups switch and not really enough information regards to it readily available for teams that get thrown into it would make it a living hell. Making all of those information posts and or updating them from 2.5 years ago would take quite a bit of effort and time. So just “testing it” isnt really what you can just do for a season as the first impressions would most likely be very bad.Edit* The numbers I used for the representation of the matches going un-played in round robin where with worst case scenarios. This of course wasnt the case in reality and would probably mean that the it would go down to around 1.6/7 matches. There is no easy way for me to crunch the numbers on it though.
I don’t think anyone is talking about having the division system right away. But there is no words from admins that there are discussions about it yet there is a debate. I think it would be interesting for the admins as much for the players to see some official actions taken/vote made on ETF2L to see the public opinion on the matter to see whether there is something to work on or not. (current strawpoll is at +200 voters with 62% people rooting for divs while 38% for tiers)
Last edited by Kaylus,
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