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About the bans
Created 12th April 2009 @ 11:47
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There’s been alot of discussion about the recent bans and it seems to center mostly around whether to publish the evidence or not. Since I have yet to see any objective posts I’ve decided to Try to sum most of it up in a neutral thread from an objective perspective.
First of all, the admins of ETF2L would certainly not ban anyone without being 100% sure. With such a large community that would be just plain stupid! Also don’t forget there are several admins and none of them work alone. Yes they aren’t publishing the evidence which many think they should but they do have reason. First it’d make it alot easier for other cheaters to work around this ´´new way of tracking cheaters´´, they’ll probably catch more cheaters if they don’t publish. Second most people probably won’t understand it anyway.
There are however, of course, very good reasons to publish them as well!
Many great teams may be broken because of this and can no longer continue as they were. Naturally if cheating is involved any such consequences should not matter! But great teams who have worked hard to get where they are needs (maybe even deserves!) to know for absolute certain that they aren’t facing possible destruction for naught.
Not to mention individuals who just may be innocent, the human factor (even admins can make mistakes) should be counted in. However since evidence hasn’t been published I wouldn’t know how much the human factor really factors in. To be fair though they should get a chance to defend themselves.
(Here’s one personal opinion though: 0-tolerance on cheating is a good thing!)
But that just brings us back to the totalitarian crap and links to hitler and whatever.
The fact is this is not a democracy, the admins have the power and they choose their own collegues. That’s the way it is and if you don’t like it, start your own league. However since this is a large public community the public opinion must matter. But I haven’t seen much threads with a “public opnion”, just individual perspectives from affected teams or such. What they want is clear though. Evidence.
Perhaps they should show the evidence privatly to affected teams then? Well, it appears to be clear they can not tust people to that extent – http://etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-2840/?recent=39148 (couldn’t wait 5 hours in posting that?). perhaps a try should be made for the community anyway though? I don’t know, this is in no way up to me in any case.
What I’d suggest however would be either a poll to see whether the public thinks it’s worth risking publishing evidence or not, or the admins keep sitting on it and risk a very angry community (or just a few angry affected teams? I’m really not sure how many are truly upset by it; as stated in a different thread people not affected can easily side with the admins since they have nothing to lose. or not care at all).
Anyhow, based on this poll the admins will then, of course, do what they see fit, but it’s still useful to see how far the ripples are really spreading (it’s a fairly large rock). And see how many are truly upset. I think the admins think only few are truly angry and therefore don’t see a great need to meet their demands for evidence.
If the poll is very decisive though it’s not impossible it even will be able to force the admins’ hands? it’s just a suggestion though which most likely nobody will care about but I’d say it’s like meeting halfway between totalitarian and democracy :P
Perhaps I am posting this prematurely, the admins are likely even now discussing what to do about it and possibly how to publish their decision, or this thread may even be totally unnecessary. But nonetheless I guess I was bored.
You may wonder who the f*uck I am but it wouldn’t really matter. Maybe I’m just a coward who can’t stand for his opinions but I’d say it helps keeping my post objective. (might tell you if you ask nicely)
I also reserve the right to be wrong and stupid. If I missed anything (likely) I’m sure you’ll let me know ;). Just keep it cool please.
PS. @ the Admins of etf2l. Keep up the good job but you damn better not be wrong! DS
om nom nom nom
My personal opinion on the whole thing is it’s very similar to when businesses get complaints about their products. They might get complaints from 100 people, which worry them, yet they may have thousands of satisfied customers, who never say that they are totally satisfied with what’s going on.
Whilst the arguments of people wanting to see evidence aren’t invalid, I see no reason that this represents the majority of the community, in fact more just the vocal few.
Again I may be totally wrong, but this is the way it appears to me.
Lol at hiding behind an alt. -1
I trust the admins 100%.
Until I get banned myself.
yes exactly joshua, good point. if we were to count all the people wanting evidence on the forum we might get (if we’re optimistic) up to 40? how many players in the etf2l?
Even if I didnt’t hide behind an alt you still wouldn’t know who I am tbh. I just don’t want some crap about “who the hell do you think you are?” well it’s true, I’m nobody…
Ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma Poker Face ma-ma pokerface
im sure if it was nightbox he would have mentioned romania a few times already
no you cant read my poker face mamamamam pokerface
Also to my knowledge NightBox is pretty illiterate…
No serious league ever publish evidence, or people would just say that they don’t see anything because they got no clue of how the cheat look like, and request to unban them.
All it is is a loud minority
There are no posts about the system works, the admins did good or i have no strong opinion either way because the people with it see no need for it
System shouldn’t change cos some bum chums/fanboys/w/e had their “mate” banned
Its like this, its like that…………….Have the song in my head now!
Its funny how much people miss, dont bother reading, or decide to interpret in their own way that the post only means what they want it to mean. One major fact is, the community are part of the reason the information isn’t given out or have been proof as to why its pointless to do so.
Last time around there was arguements that ETF2L should let team leaders know in advance before the cheater is announced, so that they can talk to the member and prepare/be ready for when the public announcement comes. So EFT2L work with the community and do that and what happens? People go posting about it in public and causing shit before the announcement and dont think this is just Arx, there were others there in that thread that posted their members were being banned as well.
Last time around people were complaining to see the evidence. You want the demo’s and proof! Right, so ETF2L privately let the people concerned know a limited number of the demo’s used and what happens? The people concerned yet again prove they shouldn’t be supported and go posting the chat logs and information around. On top of that, because ETF2L haven’t written an idiots guide to spotting a cheater the people involved can’t see anything, so giving out the demo’s was a pointless exercise. And whats more on top of that, said people carry on buying into the cheaters “I didn’t cheat” claims and carry on argueing meaning giving out demo’s was useless again.
People will always want more. Thats the simple truth and while ETF2L actually finds cheaters there will always be arguements until ETF2L say “Oh the cheaters friend said he didn’t cheat so he is unbanned now, sorry for the confusion”. That or they just allow cheats in the league. Do you want to play with/against cheaters?
If those that knew what to watch for wrote explanations and examples and gave the evidence as is being requested (ie a guide to spotting a cheater) then they would also be advising cheaters on what to do not to get caught. Its hard enough to see these things already without all this argueing making it easier for the cheaters.
There is also the talk of having a jury of people to look and confirm. Well. There is currently Jonni, Winneh, Byte, DrG, and Kop on the ETF2L AC Team and also knowing how thorough DeNeusBeer is he will be checking it all for false positives and making sure the bans are justified before he allows it to go through. There is 6 people.
Then for bans to go through the other leagues I know Mick and Fean0r take cheats very seriously within ED especially with doing UKeSa as well, so there is 2 more people that have to agree if they are banned from ED let alone the other ED admins. I also know Bury takes this seriously in WP as well so if they get banned from WP there is one more let alone the other admins he will consult.
So if someone is banned from ETF2L, ED, and WP it has gone through roughly 9 or more people that know what to look at or have had it explained to them as to why they are a cheater, and they agree he is a cheater. How big a jury do you want?
As other people have repeatedly pointed out and those argueing for evidence to be public have repeatedly ignored, how many other leagues provide you with evidence of cheats? ESL bans thousands of people at a time and dont publish the evidence.
That should be the end of the discussion really… I think that is as eloquently and correctly as it has been put so far. Nice post Mole.
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