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Who locked Arx's thread?
Created 11th April 2009 @ 12:37
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“If they catch u cheating, do they give out any proof or evidence?
Or do they simply ban you?”
Yes,simply ban.
Beause their have their methods..and they don’t give out any kind of proof or stuff, because cheater would learn from it and try something diffrent.
I think if someones cheating they should be banned simple as, i dont really care how they are found out along as it is definitive.
Aka if someone is getting banned there needs to be no question about it.
I understand why people want evidence but i put my trust in the ETF2L admins and I think the rest of you should to, if you dont apply like Winneh said…
All im doing is repeating what a lot of others are saying but maybe repeating is a good thing :D
force everyone to upload pov demos after each match, then give everyone access to those pov demos. If the space required is too high then limit this to certain divisions or force stv demos.
Also: keep all your etf2l pov match demos, that way if you’re accussed of cheating you can at least offer the demo from your pov.
What’s the point of viewing a demo?
It’s not like it can prove someone innocent or something.
Arx, we asked you to keep it privately till that news is published (today evening, not sunday btw).
Why ? Because we wanted to inform everyone personal about his situation and answer questions or explain as far as were allowed to.
We dont do that for glory, we just thought that it would be even more friendly to tell em personal instead of just reading it on our newspage with about 100 comments on it.
If you aint able to keep such informations privately for a few hours then you are just not trustworthy in my eyes.
My experience about catching cheaters ?
That would quite fill a page and just to name a few such as hl-guard development, demo analysis with ac tool programmers or observing/spotting new (unkown) hacks (to get them implemented).
Hope youre satisfied.
Cut the crap now please, fs
/note/
If someone got the right bot and knows how to use it/set it up properly – its _impossible_ to spot it by watching demos (unless he does mistakes).
Im done here tbh.
I think a big problem with the arguments of some people is along these lines:
Demos are being asked for, to show generally places where these people might have been cheating, whilst saying that’s fine, because it doesn’t show the methods of catching cheaters – the admins wouldn’t have to say which ticks, or how they can tell from these ticks that cheats are being used.
However what if one of these demos is released and 80% of the community say that they can’t see anything dodgy, and there’s a big uproar that a player is then unbanned. Well then it’s going to be a situation where so many people say that this player is innocent as far as they can see that he is 1) unbanned due to the outcry 2) everyone stops playing in this league due to lack of faith 3) admins techniques for finding cheats in this specific demo are shown. Cheaters then have an insight into what the admins are doing and similar arguments to those Winneh has posted follows.
I more than understand some people’s unhappiness at this ‘banning without proof’, especially if you have become friends with the person involved and would trust what they are saying over an admin you have never even spoken to before.
I think a way better solution to this would be to significantly increase co-operation amongst leagues. If ETF2L is banning someone, before it’s done (assuming there’s no pressing reason to get the ban in quickly as there is now due to the playoffs) then if other leagues were consulted, and they all agreed to ban this person, I think then there is very little room for disagreement, regardless of whether the demos/proof are released or not. This would improve the situation…
What it comes down to however, is that there is no way evidence should be released. Taking SGL or ESL, if someone is banned they are banned without evidence or discussion essentially forever. Yes this is using an anti-cheat client, but yes it is also through a far less rigorous process than the ETF2L admins follow. If you don’t trust their judgement, stop playing in this league, or put yourselves forward as admins to try and change the situation.
I stopped taking the posts seriously when comparisons to Nazis were made.
Player32’s idea is fine, but I already see the admins as representing the community.
And winneh, so would releasing the demo(s) used in the conviction give away all of those advanced techniques you used?
If someone can’t tell from watching the demo then there should be no problem releasing it?
Also, If I was to say I had a really advanced method of catching cheaters, here’s a list of people i’ve caught:
Player1
Player2
Player3
Player4
You can’t see the demos and even if I do give them to you, you won’t be able to see them cheating because only my advanced technique (which I’m not going to tell you) can catch them.
Would you believe me? Would you trust me? If it was you or a team mate involved, would you want me to confirm it? Proove it?
Of course you wouldn’t beleive me, or accept it. You’re basically saying, we have caught a guy cheating, we won’t tell you when, where or how he was cheating. And then you wonder why people are questioning you or asking for proof?
“force everyone to upload pov demos after each match”
avg of 7 players/team *~200 teams * 9 matches * 30 mb * 2 maps =~ 750GB/Season.
ye, .rar them. Makes around 40-60% then.
highlander & cups not counted.
The fact is, if he is cheating, and proof is provided that he is cheating, no questions can be asked. It’s done, open and shut, the end, bye bye!
I think the community is entitled to know why a member of it has been banned. The community would also like to know that the admins are doing this to benefit the competitive environment of this community, and not just for personal vendettas. Lastly the community would want to know that the techniques being used by the admins are efficient and valid and leave no question for error. As I can see, even if Pikalash is cheating, a day might come when someone who DEFINATELY is not cheating, that person knows it but doesn’t have a leg to stand on as the admin’s decision is final.
This system would not give that player any chance to proove themselves and you would be destroying the reputation and not to mention a degree of their ‘social life’ over a mistake.
The fact that evidence is not being provided allready suggests to me that it isn’t conclusive enough and the admins are worried that they might make a mistake and get flamed for it. I’d have so much more respect (and trust) if the admin team did wrongfully ban someone, then admit it and reverse the ban. At least that way it would proove they are being complete with their investigations. While i’m not suggesting I hope they get a ban wrong, I think they could at least proove the bans they have issued so far are infact correct.
I appreciate that stuff like this is being discussed. But at the end of the day it is ETF2L’s decision whether or not they want to release this kind of evidence. And if you disagree with their decision the only real thing you can do about it is leave the league and encourage others to do the same.
And yeah P32’s idea is good. If you have like 5-10 trusted top players publicly confirming (in the news post) that the given player cheats, I suppose it would give some confidence that it is true. Furthermore it doesn’t always have to be the same 5-10 players.
Arx speaks my point exactly
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