Forum

14 years ago

Quoted from Tehgnarr

[…]

Sure, but there are also unlocks that make the game richer – C&D for example. Normal stopwatch just isn’t suitable for comp play.

why the hell not? It is a skill to know the ammopack locations on a map, its a skill to know that you can leech invisibility from dispensers on gpit. When I was a pub spy. I would take all those things into account and use multiple routes to get the ammopacks and still evade your enemies. You may say that the regular invisiwatch isn’t suitable, but that is simply because you are too lazy to become good with the regular watch, instead you make yourself slower by having to wait and use the C&D. AAARGH. that was such a bad example you got me all mad. Theres sometimes a reason that vanilla can be more skill based, I mean everyone can use the C&D because it is incredibly basic but only a good player can truly succeed in 6v6 with normal watch(more skill woop woop) Shovels over equalisers means half of the soldiers need to learn rollouts again (which is a skill) and all the medics need to develop or try to remember a good heal order that isn’t just heal demo heal whatever I see…meh and they’ll have to work hard at the beginning of the round(wowzah, more fucking skill needed) Soldiers wouldn’t be able to run away everytime they get damaged meaning that they would have to be more careful about their lives, or if they aren’t they’d be dead which would be fair because of the stupid jumps they do. Without bonk attacking on gravelpit becomes harder, and people need to develop a strategy that doesn’t go: bonk in, call stickies and just go. Which is too godamn easy. Sandvich means heavies would either need to get healed by medics which means they have more to heal, or if a medic was damaged at C on gpit, he would have to wait for regen, or go get health, or just stay and get killed like he should because he was stupid enough to get damaged in the first place. These 3 are the most liked unlocks and I hope that kinda shows why there is more skill involved without them, and C&D just because I care.

Last edited by Tornf4lk, 14 years ago

Skyride

DUCS

14 years ago

Quoted from Sideshow

So without equalizer, the soldiers play less aggressively at mid? Never noticed that myself personally, maybe it’s because everyone’s used to playing with equalizer so they just jump anyway.

Ye. Going on etf2l history, I’m presuming you didn’t really play comp much before the equalizer. It used to be the case that it was a surprise tactic to have a soldier jump the other team, now its a totally standard and makes the game a lot more frustrating for medics.

14 years ago

Quoted from Skyride

[…]

Ye. Going on etf2l history, I’m presuming you didn’t really play comp much before the equalizer. It used to be the case that it was a surprise tactic to have a soldier jump the other team, now its a totally standard and makes the game a lot more frustrating for medics.

They jump because they have more health since the eq rollouts right? and then they also are able to do more stupid bombs because of the higher survival rate of the fast running soldier imo

Mordi

≧◡≦

14 years ago

Quoted from Fish

we should nominate a grand overlord of TF2 that decides what unlocks is best and everyone shuts up and follows them. for this overload we should hold an election, when its all done what he says goes and if he says you all gotta quit tf2 u gotta quit!!

on a more serious note most games we play with equalizer and bonk only even now we only use bonk because granny is an awful scout without it and it gives him childish thrills to run around unable to die. perhaps vanilla is fine i aint fussed i just enjoy playing tf2 with 5 friends (and agent :D ) and playing the game.

Perhaps the real issue in tf2 is that teams just dont stick together we are too keen to jump ship move teams steal players form teams fold teams make a team almost like the old team and fold that. Teams that stay together can move up ranks improve without changing much at all. Perhaps put more energy into getting top teams together that stay together credit to diggy they have kept the same line up for some time with minor bumps on the way but they are still together perhaps more teams like this is more of a benifit to tf2.

But untill everyone can agree on one rule set then its gonna damage tf2 further its a pain in the nuts playing all leagues and then learning without equalizer for example although its no big deal playing in a pcw where we decide not to use them the mid fights are an advantage to the team that do use as they have more of a buff on sols.

first time i dipped my toe into the debate and in summary just make your minds up play with it and ban all threads leagues with the same rules are better and ask the damn comunity on maps.

so many commas,,,,,

14 years ago

Quoted from Skyride

[…]

Ye. Going on etf2l history, I’m presuming you didn’t really play comp much before the equalizer. It used to be the case that it was a surprise tactic to have a soldier jump the other team, now its a totally standard and makes the game a lot more frustrating for medics.

to be honest though, bombing is much harder nowadays and against a well organised team a bomb can only succeed in
A) creating a distraction and/or enough damage for the rest of your team to close in
B) a creative way which usually requires more help from your team
kind of like it was before the equaliser

Tehgnarr

is good!

14 years ago

Quoted from Dummy

[…]
arguments have been presented, if you have not noticed them then you’re a special case
also its just your opinion that the NA scene is dealing just fine with the unlocks ;)

They are not? Seemed fine to me, but ok.

3) they add the element of chance into the game which shouldn’t be present in any competitive game

How so? You have good aim, you get rewarded. What unlocks in the cinnamon ruleset add this element of chance and why?

if you don’t try then don’t bother with the scene. obviously it won’t be another SC2, not without Valve taking an approach like Blizzard did, but a couple of big LANs ala catman’s now, or dreamhack in the future would certainly be a nice ‘bonus’

Hehe, that first sentence is geat. But what if if I enjoy playing the game? Shouldn’t I bother then too?

change isn’t always the best option, especially not mass produced untested spastic ‘change’, also saying that people don’t want to “adapt” to “change” is even more sad
and yes, that is a word.

you are right, thats why not all unlocks should be allowed.

going under bridge on badlands, perhaps?
and yes, i’m sure you went “WOW, PULLING THAT DH IS SO UNEXPECTED” when watching an ESEA game.
tl:dr get better eyes

No, I just thought: hey, this looks like a fun game with some nice options to have.

tl;dr get better pancreas.

so what if you play this game for 2 years and so what if its a stable team how is that relevant, especially considering theyre talking about the top end of the game, not div 6 xD

It means, I have plenty of insight into this game. And no, they are NOT talking about the top end only. Like somebody once said to me: get better eyes.

your opinion.

OMG, really?!

Skyride

DUCS

14 years ago

Quoted from Tornf4lk

They jump because they have more health since the eq rollouts right? and then they also are able to do more stupid bombs because of the higher survival rate of the fast running soldier imo

It’s not so much the health aspect, but the fact the equalizer rollout is quicker than the vanilla one while being a lot easier to be on full health when they reach mid, so its a lot less risky to do so. But ye, effectively you’re right.

Quoted from Dummy

[…]
to be honest though, bombing is much harder nowadays and against a well organised team a bomb can only succeed in
A) creating a distraction and/or enough damage for the rest of your team to close in
B) a creative way which usually requires more help from your team
kind of like it was before the equaliser

I was talking about mid.

Last edited by Skyride, 14 years ago

14 years ago

Quoted from Dummy

[…]
to be honest though, bombing is much harder nowadays and against a well organised team a bomb can only succeed in
A) creating a distraction and/or enough damage for the rest of your team to close in
B) a creative way which usually requires more help from your team
kind of like it was before the equaliser

Yes of course but in a lower divison match a bomb can be devastating. Just like an official we had last night on granary. We had a soldier on us everytime, he came from different directions and stuff but he was still bombing and we were simply unable to try and find out where he would come from and still focus on the rest of his team. so we would mostly focus on the team which we could see and deal with him as he came but sometimes that just didn’t work and he would kill either me(demo) or our medic pretty quick if he got close

14 years ago

Quoted from Tehgnarr

[…]

They are not? Seemed fine to me, but ok.

[…]

How so? You have good aim, you get rewarded. What unlocks in the cinnamon ruleset add this element of chance and why?

[…]

Hehe, that first sentence is geat. But what if if I enjoy playing the game? Shouldn’t I bother then too?

[…]

you are right, thats why not all unlocks should be allowed.

[…]

No, I just thought: hey, this looks like a fun game with some nice options to have.

tl;dr get better pancreas.

[…]

It means, I have plenty of insight into this game. And no, they are NOT talking about the top end only. Like somebody once said to me: get better eyes.

[…]

OMG, really?!

1. not in this thread but previous ones, idiot
2. every unlock adds that element of chance as you have no idea of knowing which of the 200 unlocks in TF2 the enemy will use ;)
3. I meant dont bother posting, im sure you will enjoy the game just as much with unlocks as without in your case
4. if you allow 1 unlock someone will want another. the only, and most logical, way to solve this is to ban all of them but the most standard i.e. kritzkrieg (I would ban the saw and blutz on the same principle, since the ubersaw is just a pure upgrade)
5. thats because youve played the bloody game before so you know the basics of competitive at least (hopefully you do!)
6. it doesnt mean you have better insight into the game. really.

14 years ago

Quoted from Skyride

[…]

It’s not so much the health aspect, but the fact the equalizer rollout is quicker than the vanilla one while being a lot easier to be on full health when they reach mid, so its a lot less risky to do so. But ye, effectively you’re right.

[…]

I was talking about mid.

I’m talking about mid as well

14 years ago

Quoted from Tornf4lk

[…]
Yes of course but in a lower divison match a bomb can be devastating. Just like an official we had last night on granary. We had a soldier on us everytime, he came from different directions and stuff but he was still bombing and we were simply unable to try and find out where he would come from and still focus on the rest of his team. so we would mostly focus on the team which we could see and deal with him as he came but sometimes that just didn’t work and he would kill either me(demo) or our medic pretty quick if he got close

thats the creative bit I guess :p most of it can be easily solved by just having a clear headed main caller, not necessarily a good one
and obviously if your scouts spot him ahead of time brill, 1/2 of playing scout done right