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Quoted from Tehgnarr

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Sure, but there are also unlocks that make the game richer – C&D for example. Normal stopwatch just isn’t suitable for comp play.

Normal is much more suitable. C&D makes spy way too easy.

Quoted from Tehgnarr

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Care to elaborate? How to unlocks which bring more variety to the game make it stale? Why is it more fun without?

it’s been explained so many times, please take the time to research before you debate.

I don’t understand how the Equalizer breaks rollouts? I’ve rarely played 6v6 without it but I don’t notice much difference, just that the soldiers arrive at mid with a bit less buff and it’s harder on the medic.

Quoted from Tehgnarr

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Way too easy why? Please give me some arguments.

Jesus not another person that requires hand holding…

C&D is unlimited cloak. It is too easy to camp and wait for a good opportunity to backstab.

Quoted from Sideshow

I don’t understand how the Equalizer breaks rollouts? I’ve rarely played 6v6 without it but I don’t notice much difference, just that the soldiers arrive at mid with a bit less buff and it’s harder on the medic.

It allows soldiers to arrive a mid with WAY more buff (good medics heal them both to 300).

This in turn allows them to both jump the med on mid and survive long enough to fuck shit up- here lieth the tf2 meta-game! Fun for soldiers, boring as bollocks for everyone else!

Quoted from Tehgnarr

North american scene deals with unlocks just fine and they have allowed even more. So it’s not like it can’t work.

The issue in europe a very vocal groupe of people who play at the highest possible level and therefore think, that their opinion is the only valid one. Most of those people never bother to bring any arguments forward, but are very quick to dismiss any counterarguments by saying: “lol u nub, I prem, you dont understand the game like I do”.

arguments have been presented, if you have not noticed them then you’re a special case
also its just your opinion that the NA scene is dealing just fine with the unlocks ;)

Quoted from Tehgnarr

From what I’ve read it boils down to this:

1. Vanilla + medlocks is the simplest way to unify all tournaments under one set of rules, thus making tf2 easier to understand for spectators, thus helping tf2 grow into a “big” esport.

2. Unlocks are annoying to play against, because

a) They were not designed for 6vs6, but for public play making some classes overpowered (i.e. Buffbanner)

b) They take away control from the “victim” (i.e. Sandman, F-a-N) and by that lower the skill ceiling (the “noobs can beat pros, that shouldnt happen” argument)

3) they add the element of chance into the game which shouldn’t be present in any competitive game

Quoted from Tehgnarr

I cant think of any other points against unlocks right now, but I hope somebody will provide some more, because those listed aren’t very good.

The first one clenches to the illusion, that TF2 will somehow magically receive a huge boost in popularity. Which just wont happen. How many people watched the livestream of the i42 grand final? How many watched ESEA finals? It were about 200 when I tuned in, would surprise me if it went over 1000 at some point.

Let me ask you this: how many people follow the Trackmania Nations Forever scene? Or the FIFA scene? How many watch Bloodline Champions casts? Not that many I guess, still I would think, that those games are more popular than TF2.

My point is: TF2 will _never_ be a “mass” esport. Just isn’t designed the right way, unlocks or no unlocks.

if you don’t try then don’t bother with the scene. obviously it won’t be another SC2, not without Valve taking an approach like Blizzard did, but a couple of big LANs ala catman’s now, or dreamhack in the future would certainly be a nice ‘bonus’

Quoted from Tehgnarr

I can understand that big teams want to do everything possible to change that, but I just dont see it happen. And even if it does, it wont be because we all play vanilla.

but having vanilla will certainly help make the gameplay seem atleast a bit less spasticy and comprehensible

Quoted from Tehgnarr

The second argument is about the unwillingness (is that a word?) to accept change in the game, because it may set you back in terms of results. And that is just sad.

change isn’t always the best option, especially not mass produced untested spastic ‘change’, also saying that people don’t want to “adapt” to “change” is even more sad
and yes, that is a word.

Quoted from Tehgnarr

Somebody wrote, that not all tactics for vanilla + medlocks are explored yet, but seriously, the last “big” or interesting change in tactics that I remember is the “dignitas def” on Badlands last. Apart from that: when was the last time you watched a cast and went “wow – now THAT was unexpected?”. Pls, give me some examples (demos, VODs) too.

going under bridge on badlands, perhaps?
and yes, i’m sure you went “WOW, PULLING THAT DH IS SO UNEXPECTED” when watching an ESEA game.
tl:dr get better eyes

Quoted from Tehgnarr

And for those who will surely say: “the changes are subtle, you cant even see them with your clumsy noob-eyes” – please, if a noob who plays this game for 2 years in a more or less stable team cant see the brilliance of your subtle changes, then maybe they are not brilliant at all.

so what if you play this game for 2 years and so what if its a stable team how is that relevant, especially considering theyre talking about the top end of the game, not div 6 xD

Quoted from Tehgnarr

My team and me enjoy playing with unlocks and dont like the borefest that are ESL games. Also I dont think ALL unlocks should be allowed and I think the cinnamon ruleset is not the optimal one, but this game gets pretty stale and annoying without them.

your opinion.

Quoted from Tehgnarr

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This is precisely what I was referring to in my first post. Yeah, it has been said before. But nearly everything has been said before and nearly every argument to every debate has already been mentioned in some previous conversation. By your logic, people should just stop talking and only be reading debate-protocols to form their opinions.

it was actually said, a long time ago when this shit started
if you cba to research it then dont bother to post or youll get flamed for being an idiot