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Vanilla + medlocks (+ maps, apparently)
Created 3rd May 2011 @ 15:07
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despite all this i still think that pure vanilla or every unlock is the only way for the unlock rule to be “fair” for everyone. picking one thing over another because so and so says thats better or overpowered etc is all counter-productive to getting a stable competitive scene.
Quoted from bulletproofsmurf
[…]
Lol- you think the admins will pay any attention to a poll?! You naive fool.
Look at the poll on this season’s map pool…
Ritalin was talking about an official poll where the number of votes are somehow limited and that can not easily be manipulated.
Also, I would suggest you to take a look at Koeitje’s poll again and then tell me, what exactly where we ignored in that poll without a good reason. Feel free to pm me on IRC for that.
The top 5 maps are in, the bazillion mapmaker has proven himself before, warmfront was not in the poll (coldfront on 13).
Obscure was on 7, by the way, and yet a lot of people moaned about it.
Last edited by CanFo,
I think I can beat every div9 shitnerd in this bad thread with any unlock known to man, this makes me the best player, yeah yeah??????
Still vanilla is better QQ noobs :(
I wonder when the last time anyone said-
“Man, this game would be oh so much more fun if only we were allowed x”
I’m willing to wager very few people did. I just don’t see any reason we shouldn’t have vanilla and medlocks when nobody ever seemed to complain so much about that, in comparison to the torrent of keyboard war we’ve got now, along with no more dignitas (It’s just not the same without dignitas qqqqqq) and a couple more top teams.
While I recognise that I am div6 and therefore clearly know absolutely nothing about tf2, it is hard not to see how suddenly things have changed. In my opinion, they’ve changed for the worse, and I see a lot of other people agree, with the calls for vanilla suddenly rising.
Of course it may just be a case of a vocal minority. As I said – I’m div6 and honestly I don’t see how an engineer suddenly being allowed gunslinger is that big of a deal. But, I guess there’s two sides to every coin.
Meh, to repeat, I’m for medlocks because people didn’t seem to complain as much then, and because less prem teams dropped out to ESL.
Not this again. People just don’t seem to give a rat’s ass about it.
Quoted from AcidReniX
lots of stuff
please don’t use an RTS as an example in an argument about a FPS game
it is indeed the creativity which keeps the game fresh, new tactics are still invented for badlands, it’s really a false dilemma you’re creating here – unlocks are not needed to keep the game fresh
Quoted from MEGAMIDDIE
I wonder when the last time anyone said-
“Man, this game would be oh so much more fun if only we were allowed x”
.
GUNBOATS D:
Last edited by Dummy,
ESEA unlock rules please.
Quoted from AcidReniX
– Correct, but units are added to the game with a basic level of balance in place.
Balanced around public play in TF2’s case. It isn’t realistic to expect valve to balance competitively.
Quoted from AcidReniX
If SC was just watching which player macro’s and micro’s the best, over and over, it would get boring. It’s the creativity which keeps the game fresh for the spectators, and the players.
True, but at the end of the day TF2 is an fps. There’s a reason people make frag videos but not strategy guides. There’s already enough strategy and room for creativity available at the medlocks level to bring variety to an FPS game. Any more is overkill.
1. For example, the recent map change on granary was subtle, but teams adapted by sending both scouts up there.
2. Demos adapted by going top themselves and placing a sticky up there to damage the scouts as they come out.
3. Then the game adapted again, so the demo on top had sticky pressure on him. Being already low from jumping up there and under pressure from stickies and pistol spam he would have to back out.
Just an example of how the game can shift from a minor map change, let alone unlocks.
Last edited by kuma,
North american scene deals with unlocks just fine and they have allowed even more. So it’s not like it can’t work.
The issue in europe a very vocal groupe of people who play at the highest possible level and therefore think, that their opinion is the only valid one. Most of those people never bother to bring any arguments forward, but are very quick to dismiss any counterarguments by saying: “lol u nub, I prem, you dont understand the game like I do”.
From what I’ve read it boils down to this:
1. Vanilla + medlocks is the simplest way to unify all tournaments under one set of rules, thus making tf2 easier to understand for spectators, thus helping tf2 grow into a “big” esport.
2. Unlocks are annoying to play against, because
a) They were not designed for 6vs6, but for public play making some classes overpowered (i.e. Buffbanner)
b) They take away control from the “victim” (i.e. Sandman, F-a-N) and by that lower the skill ceiling (the “noobs can beat pros, that shouldnt happen” argument)
I cant think of any other points against unlocks right now, but I hope somebody will provide some more, because those listed aren’t very good.
The first one clenches to the illusion, that TF2 will somehow magically receive a huge boost in popularity. Which just wont happen. How many people watched the livestream of the i42 grand final? How many watched ESEA finals? It were about 200 when I tuned in, would surprise me if it went over 1000 at some point.
Let me ask you this: how many people follow the Trackmania Nations Forever scene? Or the FIFA scene? How many watch Bloodline Champions casts? Not that many I guess, still I would think, that those games are more popular than TF2.
My point is: TF2 will _never_ be a “mass” esport. Just isn’t designed the right way, unlocks or no unlocks.
I can understand that big teams want to do everything possible to change that, but I just dont see it happen. And even if it does, it wont be because we all play vanilla.
The second argument is about the unwillingness (is that a word?) to accept change in the game, because it may set you back in terms of results. And that is just sad.
Somebody wrote, that not all tactics for vanilla + medlocks are explored yet, but seriously, the last “big” or interesting change in tactics that I remember is the “dignitas def” on Badlands last. Apart from that: when was the last time you watched a cast and went “wow – now THAT was unexpected?”. Pls, give me some examples (demos, VODs) too.
And for those who will surely say: “the changes are subtle, you cant even see them with your clumsy noob-eyes” – please, if a noob who plays this game for 2 years in a more or less stable team cant see the brilliance of your subtle changes, then maybe they are not brilliant at all.
My team and me enjoy playing with unlocks and dont like the borefest that are ESL games. Also I dont think ALL unlocks should be allowed and I think the cinnamon ruleset is not the optimal one, but this game gets pretty stale and annoying without them.
Last edited by Tehgnarr,
Some also lower the skill ceiling without removing control of the player ;). I think the game is stale with unlocks, and more fun and challenging without.
Last edited by Koeitje,
Quite frankly I don’t think div6 (and I assume div5 and possibly a bit higher as well) give a shit about unlocks, we hardly ever face teams that use them (apart from Equalizer and I really don’t know why you would bother banning that) and we’re not going to drop out of a league because of the rules on unlocks. We’re just gonna accept them. I don’t know why the higher level teams are so temperamental, but they seem to be a lot more passionate about vanilla than anyone else is about unlocks. Getting down to basics, more people would leave/have left due to unlocks than vanilla, so the obvious choice seems to be to go vanilla.
So it really comes down to what the higher divisions want, and I can’t see any reason why not to play with vanilla+medlocks. Although I would miss the equalizer, and I haven’t seen a good argument for it to be banned, unlike most other unlocks.
Arguments that you need to keep lower divisions happy by allowing unlocks are bullshit. The only unlocks I’ve seen consistently used at our level are equalizer, jarate and sandvich. Jarate won’t be missed and sandvich (although Alx will be angry :D) isn’t necessary. Equalizer just makes rollouts easier, and it’s obvious that the soldiers will use it – it’s easily anticipated.
Vanilla isn’t stale, if you find it stale it’s probably because you’re getting sick of TF2 in general rather than the lack of unlocks.
Last edited by Sideshow,
Quoted from Koeitje
Some also lower the skill ceiling without removing control of the player ;)
Sure, but there are also unlocks that make the game richer – C&D for example. Normal stopwatch just isn’t suitable for comp play.
It’s basically between two camps it seems. Those that think unlocks make TF2 more fun and prevent it becoming stale, and those that are more concerned with competitive matches being a genuine measure of a team’s skill.
6 v 6 with all unlocks is just a glorified pub.
With the equalizer being allowed tf2 should just be renamed “who can suicide jump onto the enemy medic first”- at the very least that makes mid points on most maps very boring for our poor medics!
we should nominate a grand overlord of TF2 that decides what unlocks is best and everyone shuts up and follows them. for this overload we should hold an election, when its all done what he says goes and if he says you all gotta quit tf2 u gotta quit!!
on a more serious note most games we play with equalizer and bonk only even now we only use bonk because granny is an awful scout without it and it gives him childish thrills to run around unable to die. perhaps vanilla is fine i aint fussed i just enjoy playing tf2 with 5 friends (and agent :D ) and playing the game.
Perhaps the real issue in tf2 is that teams just dont stick together we are too keen to jump ship move teams steal players form teams fold teams make a team almost like the old team and fold that. Teams that stay together can move up ranks improve without changing much at all. Perhaps put more energy into getting top teams together that stay together credit to diggy they have kept the same line up for some time with minor bumps on the way but they are still together perhaps more teams like this is more of a benifit to tf2.
But untill everyone can agree on one rule set then its gonna damage tf2 further its a pain in the nuts playing all leagues and then learning without equalizer for example although its no big deal playing in a pcw where we decide not to use them the mid fights are an advantage to the team that do use as they have more of a buff on sols.
first time i dipped my toe into the debate and in summary just make your minds up play with it and ban all threads leagues with the same rules are better and ask the damn comunity on maps.
Quoted from Tehgnarr
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Sure, but there are also unlocks that make the game richer – C&D for example. Normal stopwatch just isn’t suitable for comp play.
C&D just dumbs down spying and makes it waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to easy to wait for the right moment to stab or backcap. Equalizer ruins roll-outs and makes positioning less critical.
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