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I wanted to tak you seriously, Yoursillyself (was already hard with that name), but with this statement you lost all credibility, imo.

Quoted from Yoursillyself

Anything that limits creativity is bad.

With this statement you show your limited wisdom, and limited frame of reference. You have no idea what creativity is and how it manifests. Limitations are what drives creativity! Trust me, I was an Art School Student (TM)

This fallacious blabbering mirrors the rest of your posts. It’s just hearsay; you read some stuff on some site and now you think you know something. You like to shout things that sound impactful but are ultimately vapid. It’s not a disaster, but the sheer arrogance with which you started off your argument with a few pages ago makes it quite silly.

And the only people against unlocks are seemingly the 4-5 top teams that are comfy in their position.

Clearly you didn’t read the topics, (probably only a few posts), because this statement is blatantly untrue. Stop cherrypicking your data and making your own little story of it please.

Quoted from Yoursillyself

[…]

Wow you either have no idea what Quake 3 was about, or are just retarded.

Thanks. I’ve been playing FPS games when you were probably still playing with your toy cars, so yeah, I do know what Quake is about, but thanks for the ad hominem anyway.

Quake 3 vannila community has generally been very receptive to most changes, and the list I gave was the natural progression that followed and all the above were very similar games.

I didn’t mention Q1, QW, Q2, Quake 3 TA, because like your examples of TF, TFC, Q3F, ETF, UF, FF. they were all very different games.

Do you realize that you are defeating your own point here? The point was that the players of a game can’t adapt to change, and your “example” of Q3+followups was to show that a healthy compet community should be able to cope with change. However, the point was to compare this to TF2, where every new unlock changes the metagame COMPLETELY. Seriously, don’t you see this? There is no reason to compare the evolution of Q3 to that of TF2. The other argument doesn’t even need to be mentioned cause it’s been BEATEN TO DEATH (that is that Q3+followups is developed with a compet environment in mind, whilst TF2 is developed with a pub style play in mind; this is why you should read old discussions) Do you really need that spelled out for you?

And OF COURSE people want to keep things familiar. Imagine; You spent all this time getting good at a game, only to see that game changed beyond recognition. The game you are “good at” doesn’t exist any more. How can that be a good thing?

“Let’s add laser guns and vehicles to CS… just a little change!!!” Do you see my point here? All FPS games are FPS games. Their inherently designed/programmed mechanics, variables and dynamics are what makes the FPS games unique from one another. As soon as you start meddling with those variables, it becomes a DIFFERENT GAME. That’s why all those changes you decribed between the Q3+followup games are so small; otherwhise they would change the fundamentals of the game -and therefore metagame as well- to a dramatic extent, making it a different game.

Fuck me, I told myself not to respond any more…

already inb4’d by myself, waebi

19:50 – uV.skeej: this is my disease: http://xkcd.com/386/
19:50 – uV.skeej: :D

(and i also posted that under one of my own posts in an earlier unlock discussion ;P)

Quoted from skeej

With this statement you show your limited wisdom, and limited frame of reference. You have no idea what creativity is and how it manifests. Limitations are what drives creativity! Trust me, I was an Art School Student (TM)

Lol art school :D

The limitations are in the weapons themselves. Each weapon comes with positives and negatives, and the more possible weapons, the more possible combinations and more ‘creativeness’ goes into making weird and wonderful strats. Having everything given you does limit creativity, since you have no need. Having everything removed also limits it, since you have no possible options to be creative with. To use a rt example, it’s like giving someone only blue paint. Yes they can do some imaginative things with it, but imagine what they could do if given more colours?

Take for instance SC2. Would it be more creative if you couldn’t place buildings outside your base?

Clearly you didn’t read the topics, (probably only a few posts), because this statement is blatantly untrue. Stop cherrypicking your data and making your own little story of it please.

I read them, most of them boiled down to ‘premium teams don’t like it and will leave’. Although if you want to direct me to a thread that says otherwise……

Do you realize that you are defeating your own point here? The point was that the players of a game can’t adapt to change, and your “example” of Q3+followups was to show that a healthy compet community should be able to cope with change. However, the point was to compare this to TF2, where every new unlock changes the metagame COMPLETELY. Seriously, don’t you see this? There is no reason to compare the evolution of Q3 to that of TF2. The other argument doesn’t even need to be mentioned cause it’s been BEATEN TO DEATH (that is that Q3+followups is developed with a compet environment in mind, whilst TF2 is developed with a pub style play in mind; this is why you should read old discussions) Do you really need that spelled out for you?
“Let’s add laser guns and vehicles to CS… just a little change!!!” Do you see my point here? All FPS games are FPS games. Their inherently designed/programmed mechanics, variables and dynamics are what makes the FPS games unique from one another. As soon as you start meddling with those variables, it becomes a DIFFERENT GAME. That’s why all those changes you decribed between the Q3+followup games are so small; otherwhise they would change the fundamentals of the game -and therefore metagame as well- to a dramatic extent, making it a different game.

If you was around in the Quake 3 community, they complain just as much as TF2 players about changes. Each change no matter how small completely wrecks the old metagame in any competitive game (Look at the huge changes small things create from SC2). The RG Nerf reduced the need for aim, the RL buff increased the possiblity of area control, the CMPA changes made movement far more needed, hitbox changes made things more defensive since you couldn’t rely on hitting your opponent as much.

And again, giant swings in the right direction in metagame is good. Look at DotA. There was a huge debate on the addition of seige engines to push the lanes forwards, or denying only reducing xp by 50%, with many DotA players leaving claiming there was ‘no skill left’. It changed the metagame drastically, making it basically a new game. However, a better game.

Nobody is denying that TF2 is designed for pub play, however your making it sound like people want 32 player 2fort servers crit and all. On one side a pure default server is the best for pubs, and on the other a vannila everything removed final destination would be the best for the most hardcore who enjoy playing the same teams, same game day in day out.

Your average player looking to start competitive gaming would be willing to make concessions to reasonable argument. However high end competitive players are unwilling to make any movement without being forced, crying OP to anything different. Yes some weapons need removing, however just taking them all out cries of a community unwilling to change.

The fact is, as someone looking to get seriously into TF2, this unwelcoming approach to new strategies really puts me off, and about 30-40 other people I know that would be looking to make their own teams as well (Probably about 10-20 teams not joining ETF2L). Banning shit is a slippery road, and presumably if my team managed to create a 2 spy strategy that started winning, that would be removed as well due to ‘not being that way vannila TF2 is supposed to be played’.

I’ve yet to see any reasoned argument as to why weapons after the medic update are ‘magically’ OP. Heck people are already requesting the new medic gun to be removed, a gun that removes the two things that make medics powerful (Ubers and overheal), in return for a quick surprise mid take. Again in the Na scene, the newer weapons are very rarely used, and generally to take teams buy surprise.

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1953610

This is what your average person thinks of EU’s No items Fox only final destination approach to TF2. Somehow I doubt the league is going to grow much catering to the 3 teams still playing.

Quoted from Yoursillyself

The limitations are in the weapons themselves. Each weapon comes with positives and negatives, and the more possible weapons, the more possible combinations and more ‘creativeness’ goes into making weird and wonderful strats. Having everything given you does limit creativity, since you have no need. Having everything removed also limits it, since you have no possible options to be creative with. To use a rt example, it’s like giving someone only blue paint. Yes they can do some imaginative things with it, but imagine what they could do if given more colours?

Having more or less does not alter the state of being creative. You’re either creative or you are not. It’s irrelevant if you have 10 or 100 weapons.

Let me point you to the notion of consistency which has been contemplated by people. It has been postulated that sticking to one uniform ruleset is the way to go, in order to foster the growth of TF2 as a competitive sport. The constant content additions are counter-productive to this cause, that is why some people are against it and you should be able to understand why as you claim to be knowledgeable in the field of competitive scenes. (first ad hominem because I lack the drive to spell it out for you)

Quoted from Yoursillyself

I read them, most of them boiled down to ‘premium teams don’t like it and will leave’. Although if you want to direct me to a thread that says otherwise……

It is not the job of those who already had the debate to fill you in on something that already has been spoken about – When you can’t speak on a topic because your research lacks you’re ought to be silent.

Quoted from Yoursillyself

And again, giant swings in the right direction in metagame is good. Look at DotA. There was a huge debate on the addition of seige engines to push the lanes forwards, or denying only reducing xp by 50%, with many DotA players leaving claiming there was ‘no skill left’. It changed the metagame drastically, making it basically a new game. However, a better game.

You tried to pull the logic card on dummy, let me point you to the fact that judging whether a game is better or not is not part of formal logic, you may refrain from doing so in the future.

Quoted from Yoursillyself

Nobody is denying that TF2 is designed for pub play, however your making it sound like people want 32 player 2fort servers crit and all. On one side a pure default server is the best for pubs, and on the other a vannila everything removed final destination would be the best for the most hardcore who enjoy playing the same teams, same game day in day out.

SC hasn’t changed a whole lot datawise for some time yet it’s not the “same game” day in, day out; you should know that since you claim to know the scenes. (another ad hominem for the fun of it)

Quoted from Yoursillyself

Your average player looking to start competitive gaming would be willing to make concessions to reasonable argument. However high end competitive players are unwilling to make any movement without being forced, crying OP to anything different. Yes some weapons need removing, however just taking them all out cries of a community unwilling to change.

Fallacy of Composition

Quoted from Yoursillyself

Banning shit is a slippery road, and presumably if my team managed to create a 2 spy strategy that started winning, that would be removed as well due to ‘not being that way vannila TF2 is supposed to be played’.

genetic fallacy

Quoted from Yoursillyself

This is what your average person thinks of EU’s No items Fox only final destination approach to TF2. Somehow I doubt the league is going to grow much catering to the 3 teams still playing.

hasty generalisation

Lastly: Hi

I’ve said it before and i’ll say it again.

Before making these apsoloutley retarded paragraphs about unlocks. THINK!

Think about what those unlocks in tf2 (jep tf2 specifically, no RTS, no RPG or Quake w/e/) do exacly. If you analyse each unlock you’ll understand that most of them either make something that can be already done either easier or more efective. Almost none of the unlocks bring anything actully worth adding.

Say for example bonk. Adds a posibbility for the scout to escape from lost fights, run trough sticky bombs, or simply act gay and create distraction. All of this (well most of this) can be done by simply being a creative and a skilled scout (not gonna explane how, every proper player should know how to do it, if not get good :) ) with his teammates and the default unlocks.

What’s the point of adding it? If all bonk does is lower the skill ceiling of a scout. Same with the equalizer, force a nature and so on.

Of course there are arguably some unlocks that do bring something interesting to the table , but i think we should only allow the really great ones, that reward fast, skillful play (making it easier to do something like TDH airshots doesn’t count) and don’t fuck with the current game’s mechanics(say most of the medlocks).

sorry about my grammar :(