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Vanilla + medlocks (+ maps, apparently)
Created 3rd May 2011 @ 15:07
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Quoted from aaaaa
I don’t understand why the US community seems to be p much fine with unlocks, and then on the other side the EU community is against unlocks and complains at every single opportunity about how not having vanilla is “killing” tf2.
:s
Different people different opinions, and the NA scene doesn’t play the same way we do.
Quoted from Buffalo Bill
[…]
Different people different opinions, and the NA scene doesn’t play the same way we do.
The claim was that all unlocks are overpowered, is that just down to opinion?
Quoted from RaCio
[…]
The claim was that all unlocks are overpowered, is that just down to opinion?
I was talking about why NA is fine with unlocks and we aren’t.
Who claimed all unlocks are overpowered?
Quoted from RaCio
[…]
The claim was that all unlocks are overpowered, is that just down to opinion?
some are, and some arent. ive always found that some weapons would be allowed because thier setbacks are “higher” than their bonuses (an example being the ampuator). Yes there are weapons that would be great for comp, this is why [some] people like the equalizer, and the sandwich (that piece of ham has saved me many times when my medic is not around). However the issue is if you allow one unlock, you have to allow them all, otherwise you will be people complaining because they feel X is OP whereas Y, which would be the same class weapon, is underpowered, and not allowed.
Admins have tried to get a balance however its just time staking to test these weapons for comp, and I know the admins are humans like you and I, so they dont have much free time, let alone after all their admin work. And Ive never sene someone step foward and offer testing these weapons for comp play (yes, Im aware of the EO cups)
however, its just time wasted, and that time could be used to play more TF2, the simple answer is all or nothing, and nothing [okokok, with the basic med unlocks] is the better option for the better of the game
Quoted from Buffalo Bill
[…]
I was talking about why NA is fine with unlocks and we aren’t.
Who claimed all unlocks are overpowered?
Actually the idea that NA players are all fine with unlocks is wrong, there was a poll of one of the leagues, or commft, a couple of weeks ago which when I checked it had more pro van med locks votes than pro unlocks, although that could’ve change ofc as it was not done by far when i saw it
Quoted from Skully
[…]
some are, and some arent. ive always found that some weapons would be allowed because thier setbacks are “higher” than their bonuses (an example being the ampuator). Yes there are weapons that would be great for comp, this is why [some] people like the equalizer, and the sandwich (that piece of ham has saved me many times when my medic is not around). However the issue is if you allow one unlock, you have to allow them all, otherwise you will be people complaining because they feel X is OP whereas Y, which would be the same class weapon, is underpowered, and not allowed.
Admins have tried to get a balance however its just time staking to test these weapons for comp, and I know the admins are humans like you and I, so they dont have much free time, let alone after all their admin work. And Ive never sene someone step foward and offer testing these weapons for comp play (yes, Im aware of the EO cups)
however, its just time wasted, and that time could be used to play more TF2, the simple answer is all or nothing, and nothing [okokok, with the basic med unlocks] is the better option for the better of the game
did you just call the sandvich and equaliser great for competitive =o
jeez koetje pretty mad
Last edited by Dummy,
Quoted from Skully
[…]
some are, and some arent. ive always found that some weapons would be allowed because thier setbacks are “higher” than their bonuses (an example being the ampuator). Yes there are weapons that would be great for comp, this is why [some] people like the equalizer, and the sandwich (that piece of ham has saved me many times when my medic is not around). However the issue is if you allow one unlock, you have to allow them all, otherwise you will be people complaining because they feel X is OP whereas Y, which would be the same class weapon, is underpowered, and not allowed.
Nononono. Sandvich and Equalizer are NOT good for comp. The problem is div6 dribblers who think they are.
You’re probably the biggest dribbler around, Koeitje.
Quoted from RaCio
[…]
The claim was that all unlocks are overpowered, is that just down to opinion?
In the absolute sense, “overpowered” is a useless concept in a symmetrical multiplayer game. If an item with certain assets is available to both sides, how can it be overpowered? You could say that a certain item makes a certain class stronger vs another certain class, an assymetrical advantage. But still, the adverse team can adapt by also using this strategy because it’s freely available to them. “Imbalanced” is a better term because it brings the game out of balance, compared to the state it was before item X was introduced. Of course a new equilibrium will be naturally established with this new item introduced, but the shift of the equilibrium means that the game inherently changes. From that point onwards it’s all down to taste and preference. You can keep Sandvich in the game and bring Natascha back, to make TF2’s focus shift into a heavy-oriented game. But does the majority (read: everyone except ALX) enjoy that? Don’t think so.
Anyway why am I typing… Everything has been said before, stop talking about unlocks, CONSISTENCY is the new hype. As long as the majority of European TF2 leagues/cups/lans play vanilla, and if the majority of players prefer playing vanilla, the case is pretty much closed. And that has also been said 100 times before. Can we please stop reiterating the same stuff every few days?
Quoted from Skully
[…]
However the issue is if you allow one unlock, you have to allow them all, otherwise you will be people complaining because they feel X is OP whereas Y, which would be the same class weapon, is underpowered, and not allowed.
What? That is no issue at all. The people that like other unlocks (that are banned) have generally just settled with the rules. The “otherwise people will be complaining” is the most ironic thing I have heard in a long, long while.
edit: @skeej, Nice post! One note about the second part though. Talk about consistency is great, however people seem to argue mainly on the presumption that the majority of teams agree with them. If the majority of teams want equalizer (which is likely), would consistency still be the option?
And if anything, the solution is right there. Valve has been implementing balance fixes for the equalizer to the beta for over half a year now. They have a special forum for competitive feedback. Some of the changes are downright what some vanilla fans have asked for. It would give the fix people have asked for and allow a large amount of teams to keep the equalizer. So why are there about 10 (mostly american) replies in feedback?
Last edited by RaCio,
Quoted from skeej
[…]
In the absolute sense, “overpowered” is a useless concept in a symmetrical multiplayer game. If an item with certain assets is available to both sides, how can it be overpowered? You could say that a certain item makes a certain class stronger vs another certain class, an assymetrical advantage. But still, the adverse team can adapt by also using this strategy because it’s freely available to them. “Imbalanced” is a better term because it brings the game out of balance, compared to the state it was before item X was introduced. Of course a new equilibrium will be naturally established with this new item introduced, but the shift of the equilibrium means that the game inherently changes. From that point onwards it’s all down to taste and preference. You can keep Sandvich in the game and bring Natascha back, to make TF2’s focus shift into a heavy-oriented game. But does the majority (read: everyone except ALX) enjoy that? Don’t think so.
You’re misusing overpowered. If something is imbalanced then by definition one side has more power than the other, so the terms are pretty much inter-changeable. But the idea of unlocks isn’t about being overpowered against the other team, rather against other classes (e.g. a sticky launcher with 500 damage and 100 ammo is in balance with the other team, but not with other classes). Both imbalanced and overpowered can refer to differences between the classes and differences between the teams. We are talking about classes, so overpowered is a perfectly ok term to use (although people do misuse it such that it becomes meaningless, hence why you think it is a meaningless word).
Quoted from Imperium
[…] But the idea of unlocks isn’t about being overpowered against the other team, rather against other classes (e.g. a sticky launcher with 500 damage and 100 ammo is in balance with the other team, but not with other classes). Both imbalanced and overpowered can refer to differences between the classes and differences between the teams. We are talking about classes, so overpowered is a perfectly ok term to use (although people do misuse it such that it becomes meaningless, hence why you think it is a meaningless word).
Agree 100% … And you are totally right that my aversiveness of “overpowered” is mainly bred out of an oversaturation and overuse of the word. I’m so tired of hearing “overpowered”. The semantics are not important, as long as we stay on the same dialectical level, we can discuss matters in a clear and rational way.
RaCio: I admire your idealism but I think everyone has simply given up on Valve actually listening to the competitive community. At least I have. Why should I bother registering on a site mainly visited by pub players who complain that the heavy doesn’t die if they bat them as a scout 4 times? It took Valve, what, 4 months?, to take a bit off the damage output ceiling of the equalizer. Wow, bravo.
I’m sorry for being pessimistic about this, but when I see Vali making an EXTREMELY solid, well argumented, and well formulated post about nearly every weapon in the game, and NOTHING of this feedback actually done with it, my hope kinda vanishes.
We have to take matters in our own hands and not let us be at the mercy of the Valve developers who don’t really have much of a clue about 6v6 competitive (and not to blame them, “we” made this gamemode with it’s weird limits up by ourselves.). Why should we have to be on the steamforums anyway? Aren’t the posts on this ETF2L forum in a sense more legit, because the people registered and posting here are the actual competitive players who care about their game they way the play it, and the leagues they play in? It shouldn’t matter where feedback is posted or gathered from. If it’s solid feedback, if the core of the feedback represents the feelings/thoughts of a relevant group of players/users, then it should be just as, or even more, valid when it’s posted on a forum like this one.
Just allow medlocks, that way we can squeeze all the life out of TF2 before it ultimately dies because Valve have added so much extra content that nobody can run the game any more.
ninjas
ninjas everywhere
Last edited by Spike Himself,
Quoted from skeej
[…]I think everyone has simply given up on Valve actually listening to the competitive community. At least I have. Why should I bother registering on a site mainly visited by pub players who complain that the heavy doesn’t die if they bat them as a scout 4 times?
You make it seem like there is no “competitive feedback” forum on the site? And besides, there’s even a tf2beta section on the etf2l forums you could react on. Point is that things that were directly asked for by the competitive community hardly get feedback, even though they could easily resolve large issues. And as I said, valve has implemented changes that benefit the pub community in no way whatsoever and were directly asked for by the competitive community. The statement “valve doesn’t care” is simply factually incorrect.
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