Forum

Quoted from xzr

[…]

and nobody proper would attend

why are you even playing this game anymore if you cannot do it for fun? I mean I understand and support you oh so great king vanilla, but still… I understand that you cannot have fun with unlocks, but why so serious? :)

Quoted from naMu

[…]

why are you even playing this game anymore if you cannot do it for fun? I mean I understand and support you oh so great king vanilla, but still… I understand that you cannot have fun with unlocks, but why so serious? :)

I do have fun playing vanilla? I don’t really see your point.

How people have read both sides of the argument and still proceed to argue a futile pro unlock case is beyond me

Quoted from CommanderX

How people have read both sides of the argument and still proceed to argue a futile pro unlock case is beyond me

it is war
he is trolling
/case

Hear that guys? Outside?

Treeeeeeeeeeendy

i like the gunboats

@skeej

High risk / reward does not always make a better game. If it does, by that logic, instagib is the way forward. To be 1 shot, or to 1 shot. That is about as high risk / reward as you can get. But even so…

What about the weapons that have a higher risk / reward? What about the weapons that actually require more skill to be effective with? TDH, Sandman (less HP, higher risk, can be 1 shotted by several weapons now), Crit-a-cola, degreaser, That new Heavy gun, FaN. Are these by the same logic, better for competitive TF2 than the vanilla weapons?

For your ‘adding elements of not knowing’ comment. (Game)sense, anticipation and prediction are some high valued skills in any sport. I understand what you are saying, in there being a sense of luck… but there are very few complete hard counters to other weapons in the game. Should you force all players to take a single route to the mid fight, so that you know in advance which route they are going to take, eliminating the ‘luck’ factor of choosing the right route?

On a map like Granary, there is a large risk involved if you head to the right hand entrance, and their demoman comes down the left. By a simple rock/paper/scissors decision, he can effectively deal huge amounts of damage, if not completely lock your entire team out of the midfight, or help your team gain a significant map position. Having some rock/paper/scissor situations in the game does not neccesarily make the game bad. It can test the ability of the other team’s level of adaptation. Being able to think on the spot, and react successfully to a pre-determined choice. This is the same as a team rolling out with a set of unlocks that are unknown to their opponents.

In regards to your #1 point. There are still limited variables when using unlocks. There are just more variations, thus increasing the skill cap needed to effectively ‘master’ the game. In number 6 you used ‘decreasing the skill ceiling’ as a negative statement, yet by reducing the number of variations available, you are also decreasing the skill ceiling as there is less for a player to learn. Why is one bad when the other is not? Are we supposed to hit the skill ceiling before we raise the bar? Why not have the skill ceiling be as high as possible (or at least higher), right from the start?

A top level player will probably understand the game more than a lower level player. It’s not definite though, so don’t instantly rule out the opinions of lower division players. There are numerous players who play at the top level because they can move their mouse crosshair over a player and click their mouse button… better than a low division player. Just because a player might not have mastered the mechanics of the game, doesn’t mean they do not understand it. It could be that they just can’t execute their understanding due to physical constraints. A brief example would be that I understand a tonne of Starcraft2 strategies, I can read opponents perfectly based on timings, unit counts etc.. But I still suck at the game because I’m simply not quick enough with my actions, and it takes me longer to process my knowledge than the top level players. This is a forum, people have time to think about what they write. Don’t rule out lower division players, JUST because they are low division.

I agree a succesful spectator sport has clearly defined rules and consistency. But watching a game of chess, isn’t so enjoyable, and I’m pretty sure most would agree. For a successful spectator sport, you have several factors. There are people who play the game, who want to see the game being mastered at the highest level. There are people who play the game who want to see the entertaining moments; the ‘WOW’ moments. There are also people who want to spectate a match, who have never played the game before, who have no idea what is meant to be the pinnicle of TF2… they just want to see explosions, a team pushing, melee kills, taunts, and all the comedy stuff that TF2 can add to the game. Which of these groups is the majority? Hmm I’m not sure, but I think a lot of them are simply there for the entertainment and comedy. The only reason why allowing full unlocks is bad in this argument, is that additional unlocks are added over time, which removes the element of consistency. But permanently adding select unlocks can only add to the game. The rules would be clear, once people have read them.

TF2 does have more variety than most FPS games. We also have even more variety available to us through unlocks. There are players who would spend their time, mastering these new strategies and techniques available with additional weapons, so why hinder them? Some people are too lazy… well let them be lazy, and let the people who do want to spend some time attempting to ‘master’ the game, accel ahead.

Less ‘can’ be more yes. But more is often what it is.