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Spectators could not see shit in i4x series and that took my mood down more than the casting. They should take model from assembly how to make spectators actually see what the hell is going on in the game. I watched i40 cast at home and i42 I was on the venue. I liked the casting on both, but yeah, it’s not really style of pledge to get too exited easy… unlike byte who is always screming no matter what happens :D

They have a big ass screen what everyone can see + monitor facing towards spectators for each of the players. This gives a good general view for everyone since you can see what players see + you see what casters show you in the big ass screen.

Quoted from WARHURYEAH

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This might actually be a good idea :/ Not sure.

EXPERIMENTAL CUP! GO!

Relies to much on that first rocket/sticky.

My incoherent 10 commandments of Vanilla:

1. Out of limitation and constriction within a competitive environment grows exploitation of said limited variables. One can call this process “mastery”.

2. Mastery is a highly regarded human feat, and is a great attractor of appreciators and spectators. Mastery is what people strive for and why they “get good”.

3. A succesful spectator sport has clearly defined rules (as in, ingame variables) and consistency.

4. High risk/reward situations that can only be pulled off through mastery are usually situations out of which “spectacle” emerges; highly interesting situations for spectators.

5. The majority of TF2 unlocks result in lower risk/reward situations compared to their vanilla equivalents (equaliser, bonk, sandvich, degreaser, sidney sleeper, cloak and dagger, gunslinger, wrangler, mad milk, natascha, should I continue?). Therefore they actually make the game boring, both player and spectator-wise.

6. Adding in elements of “not knowing” (I prefer to avoid the term “randomness”) in a competitive environment makes the environment effectively less competitive. It increases the “luck” factor and decreases skill ceiling.

7. In a competitive esport where public play already differs fundamentally from competitive play (team size, class limits), arguments about the difficulty of transition from pub to competitive play are invalid.

8. Complaints about the lack of variety in TF2 are unfounded. TF2 is probably the most varied competitive FPS game out there. Look at the mix and dynamic between classes, hitscan and non-hitscan weapons, vertical gameplay, map rule differences (gravelpit is essentially a totally different game compared to 5cp) We haven’t even started fully exploiting all these “vanilla variables” yet (aka, haven’t reached the skill ceiling, even acid-pro-unlocks-renix acknowledges this), so why add in more now?

9. *Insert template and endlessly-repeated sirlinian argument about top level players truly understanding the game and knowing how it should be played, even though lower-tier players will keep coming up with fallacious retorts to this*

10. I know we do not live in the Modernist era anymore, but did nobody ever tell you that “less is more”?

(edit: fixed some typos etc)

Quoted from skeej

10. I know we do not live in the Modernist era anymore, but did nobody ever tell you that “less is more”?

+1

Quoted from skeej

10. I know we do not live in the Modernist era anymore, but did nobody ever tell you that “less is more”?

+1 so true…

Quoted from Koeitje

I love you skeej.

+10

I would like to add 3 points:

– Most arguments in favor of unlocks and variation in this topic and all the previous topics suggest that both playing and spectating 30 minutes on a saigns.de 32 player public server is the most interesting/compelling/exhilarating thing that ever happened to TF2, as the reasoning seems to be that more variables = better.

– Even though I wrote all this, my own team still plays in ETF2L and we are fine with it (and doing more than well in our div) Everything doesn’t have to be black and white, it’s not harshly with-or-against, and ultimately we just wanna play good competitive games! I have to refer to Hildreth’s wonderful post here: http://etf2l.org/forum/off-topic/topic-16620/page-5/?recent=299931#post-299585 . I totally agree with his sentiment; although the sad reality probably is that in the end we need general consistency amongst all leagues to keep the competitive community flourishing imo.

– I feel that unlocks that provide high risk / high reward situations, like the gunboats or the FaN, should be re-evaluated. My competitive TF2 history does not go that far back compared to others, so maybe we’re already past the point of re-evaluation; I don’t know.

Quoted from Waebi

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I know some guys on here do not really know logic, but p =! p is complete madness.

That’s why it’s “Art”. Silly.

;D

Quoted from Shabbaman

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Woah, wait… did you just call the sandvich boring? It’s the best thing that ever happened to anything, anywhere! I’m not sure I’m still in love with you. But besides that, +9001.

I wanted to keep the argument focussed on fundamental/principle reasoning and not about specific situations/items, but ok: The sandvich, for ME, is a special case. It lowers risk, keeps reward about the same, compared to shotgun. Heavy uses his minigun 99% of the time anyway. I think sandvich would be fixed if it wouldn’t work like a normal medpack for the heavy that drops it. Heavy shouldn’t be able to walk over it and get +150hp. The medpack-functionality should only work for other players walking over it. If the heavy walks on it, it should just give him his sandvich back. If the heavy wants healing from the sandvich, he should eat it through +attack1 functionality. In the current situation, it’s just like heavies have 450hp base health. OR: rockets that hit the heavy should always do base damage (no distance damage falloff). Anyway, this is not a fix-the-heavy topic.

Quoted from WARHURYEAH

[…]

This might actually be a good idea :/ Not sure.

EXPERIMENTAL CUP! GO!

Experimental cup would be an interesting idea- if not to prove a point about the chaos that unlocks produce. A 4 week short tourney where no stock weapons are allowed.

To quote kuma- “piss would be flying everywhere”