Forum

Quoted from Skyride

[…]

Yes you can when they are not educated enough to form a well reasoned opinion. If I went out and took a pool of 1000 random people on whether global warming was happening and whether nuclear power was a good idea, I’m sure you’d find a fairly sizeable chunk of people who didn’t “believe” in global warming, and thought that nuclear power is a bad idea because “look at japan and chernobyl”, entirely ignoring literally piles of evidence proving global warming and the fact that Chernobyl was a one off accident due to people not following safety procedure, and that orders of magnitude more enviromental damage has been done by burning oil refineries in Japan, than is remotely likely to be caused by Fukushima at this point.

stfu skyride from now on people whos nicknames begin with letters a-m are going to be listened to whilst n-z can gtfo

You want the poll to be fair. This can only be possible if everyone gets a vote. The only way you can limit it is to prevent multiple accounts in whatever way possible, which is basically limiting by steamID. This will leave some multiple accounts. To further limit this, there is presumably a way of finding out whether that steam account has tf2 in it, and if so, the poll can request you to make your account public for the time it takes to check.

On to why limiting in other methods is not fair;
1) Team leaders: The team disagrees! Simply because they play together does not mean they agree. Naive to think so – in the same way political parties have a leader but have massively ranging ideologies.

2) Prem/div X get a vote: Not only elitist, but clearly isn’t fair on the lower divisions. Also, the division below the limit will have some who are more skilled, as will some people who are teamless/did not play for 1 season. Also as said it can be exploited with more than 1 leader, and multiple accounts (unless restricted by seasons, see below).

3) Played in season X: What about the season before? And before that? The whole point is you’re trying to attract these people. If you aren’t giving them an influence, you aren’t even pretending that you want to expand your playerbase. If someone has not played in a certain season, and is still interested in etf2l, the last thing you want to do is dissuade them from coming. It’s not just about the existing playerbase – I hope!

4) Played an official: same as above. If they take an active interest in the league, let them vote!

5) Poll representative: suffers from restricting by when you played AND team leaders.

6) Player council: If you want a fair poll, having an unelected body is hardly going to help the idea of democracy. If it were elected, it would be a popularity contest, there wouldn’t be people from lower divs and so on. The appointing would also be great fun in terms of whining and people who are not the most capable would get on; neither elected nor unelected would this work.

Democracy’s flawed but you simply can’t restrict (except to abusers).

Also, if you really are going for fairness, you should also be using a preference system rather than a simple plurality one. This would be particularly useful for maps, where badlands, granary, gully, gravel will probably get through, but getting the majority of people to agree on the 5th and 6th is difficult when deciding between viaduct/gorge(!)/turbine/warmfront/snakewater/etc. I’m perfectly happy to help work out which maps have majority support if you give me the data for this (would be good practice for electoral systems for my politics AS…).

etf2l really has to consider what they’re going to do with their polls. You cannot satisfy fairness and little work (hence why i offered to help if you use a preference system). If you truly want it to be fair, put the work in. If you’re not actually going to make decisions based on the polls, fairness probably hasn’t got much to do with it, since you’re already comprimising it.

going through replies:

humbug: 1-20 solution, doesn’t work. People can exploit it. Say I love turbine, but if snakewater does well then it won’t get in. I know badlands and gran will get in, so i’ll put turbine 1 (even though it’s like my 5th favourite map), and snakewater 20. This is the flaw with evaluation systems, but preference systems solve this (by not taking into account preferences which are very low when unpopular, and when they are popular it’s about whether 1 is above the other, not how far down).

ghostface: Giving more votes to prem teams (rather than restricting completely) still fails to truly be fair. Giving some arbitary increase in value makes it seem like all of one type of player is better than another. Also, how on earth could you do it? Whatever you played last season? numlocked played in div 5 however many seasons ago. Does that mean he’s div 5? No. It means that people can’t arbitrarily be said to be in 1 div, so you can’t do a points based system like that.

A couple of people QQ’ing about how democracy’s shit on p2, no shit it is. But having a couple of people at the top doesn’t work either (unless they’re perfectly intelligent, which is not only possible but judging by the community outrage it doesn’t seem as if the current group are doing it). Etf2l should, however, make sure that they state on the poll whether they will use it directly to decide, or use it as a guidance.

Waebi: Forcing to people to vote is admirable. But several things. Some people don’t want a say. Some people won’t join if they have to do the poll. Some people don’t think they’re in a position to choose on some of the issues.

Skeej: We have to give them input because they’re (arguably) more important (net) to the league. They might not join if they don’t get a say/would not want to adapt. Other more experiences players may want to participate in the league no matter what (reasonable) unlocks. I’m not saying new players are more important, but you can’t assume all of them will adapt to whatever.

Skyride/CanFo/weighting idea: Weighting doesn’t make it fair. You also don’t actually need to weight, as long as you can extrappolate what div they are (and if they aren’t in a div you ask a question, and because some people will be tards you make that a separate group of data so you don’t have suspiciously many prem players…).

Although skyride +1 to your representatives post: this is small enough to do direct democracy.

When you talk about ignoring the majority, I agree some people are idiots. Democracy is flawed because of this, but it’s the least bad method. You can’t say your method is best, because that’s arrogant, elitist, and everyone’s flawed in the end.

Well, I just think that people should be given more freedom (liberalism hurp durp) while you think people are shitty so you might as well force them too (conservatism). Can’t settle that and you certainly aren’t a person to come up with illogical arguments, so i can’t really challenge you there =)

and in answer to your question it’s pretty clear i say no, think my previous post said enough about that :p