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Suggestions for "fair polls"
Created 25th April 2011 @ 21:41
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Remember: We need a poll system that
– is fair
– is not easy to exploit/abuse
– does not require much work by the admins :P
Not possible!
A fair one would be that every team gets 1 vote on a provisional map pool/rule set. Agreed or Disagreed [if disagreed you have to type what you want to change]. To make it fair – prem vote x7, div6 x1 as mentioned somewhere before. If Disagreed votes are more – check what things are on the top of the list to change. To make it not easy to abuse/exploit – teams who have FINISHED in last 2 season get to vote.
but that`s a shitload of work for the admins. :/
One point that has been raised to me and I think is relevant, is that although the high div players have a better understanding of the game and how to play, they dont necessarily tend to have a good understanding of the unlocks, as they rarely, if ever, play with them.
Map picks, I feel we can trust them thar pros, but unlocks…mebbe not.
Quoted from Monkeh
One point that has been raised to me and I think is relevant, is that although the high div players have a better understanding of the game and how to play, they dont necessarily tend to have a good understanding of the unlocks, as they rarely, if ever, play with them.
Map picks, I feel we can trust them thar pros, but unlocks…mebbe not.
I can agree with this to a point though sometimes it’s just so easy to see how a weapon can affect a game without having to use it much.
Quoted from
[…]
Why? What he said sounds reasonable.
You’ll find it is unreasonable because he’s wrong. The top players have played with unlocks and if it were to enhance the game play would play with them. Test games have been tried with them and they bring nothing to the game, there are a few that I imagine a good few players would play with, most importantly the equalizer. Even if they hadn’t played with the weapons they would still have more of an idea – all you have to do is sit on a division 5 mummble and you realise how little teams understand about general play and the unlocks themselves.
Quoted from skeej
[…]
That reminds me of map-votes on pub servers. “Press a random button so the dialog goes away” … I’m not sure if you’d want such votes.
yes, I’d want such votes. Only here you cant press a button so it goes away, you’d actually have to press several and submit the form – or, and that’s fine by me too, make a “I HEREBY DECLARE I’M A HUGE TURD AND RENOUNCE MY RIGHT TO VOTE [X] BUTTON”
Quoted from doks
Remember: We need a poll system that
– is fair
– is not easy to exploit/abuse
– does not require much work by the admins :P
they invest their time for worse stuff, so i’m sure if it comes to doing something worth while they’ll all love to actually get on it.
I’m sure if the poll were official and actually announced on the front page, possibly even per e-mail (well, what does etf2l have these for then?) you’d eeeeaasily get more than the 25% of the last ones.
Quoted from Monkeh
One point that has been raised to me and I think is relevant, is that although the high div players have a better understanding of the game and how to play, they dont necessarily tend to have a good understanding of the unlocks, as they rarely, if ever, play with them.
Map picks, I feel we can trust them thar pros, but unlocks…mebbe not.
Quoted from
[…]
Why? What he said sounds reasonable.
Top teams vote for vanilla not because they don’t know how to use unlocks, but because it makes game less skill deciding. When everyone have same unlocks, the player-to-player encounter is more even. Also few unlocks make game more user friendly, and thats not a really good thing in competitive scene.
Few examples: equalizer do not require one solly to do a rollout and it’s less percent that team will do mistakes during it.
Boing just allows scouts run straight and check for sticky spots on gravelpit.
Sure you can say unlocks have their + and -, but usually they’re used in a certain situations when they only give huge advantages ( see example with gravelpit )
Also big plus with vanilla is that we have stable unlock system, and don’t need to make new rules with each update.
And the “best” idea so far was that vanilla is a default, and both teams can agree if they want to play with other unlocks.
Last edited by dauk,
LOL.
At first the argument for equal input for the lower divs went like this: “lower div players can still have an excellent understanding of the game, despite being lower div and having less experience/playtime than higher div players”,
Yet now, it is claimed that “lower div players have a better understanding of unlocks, because they have been playing with them”??? The argument is switched around 100%?
You just established that experience/playtime does not equal a rational understanding of the game. So, according to that reasoning, top level players DONT NEED to spend time with shit unlocks to realise how shit they are.
Last edited by skeej,
Yeah Gubbins, in some cases that is true, see fists of steel for a reference, but things like the shortstop are just not understood by a lot of people, especially as they get tweaked and nerfed almost with every update…oh….yeah…see fists of steel again!
If the voting system goes ahead I’d urge everyone of us to actually get on a pub server or lobby and play with these “OP” or “broken” weapons before you vote. Especially if the votes do get weighted for div placements.
@Skeej: I never said lower div players understand the game as much as higher div ones, that seems common sense to me, but weapons need playtime to fully understand and I doubt most of you higher guys play much pub or piss around with unlocks like us shit noobs do.
Last edited by Monkeh,
Couldn’t disagree more, sorry.
Approximately 88.765% of all the unlocks are in no-way game breaking but add an extra dimension and level of interest to TF2. Most of them are shit anyway and wouldn’t be used, but does that mean that they should be banned? Fuck no.
Could also say ALL unlocks allowed and only ones both teams agree NOT to use be banned for that match, either way 1 team dictates to the other….no good imo.
This argument will never….ever…ever…..ever…be resolved….ever.
Last edited by Monkeh,
they add an unnecessary extra level, simply making the game too chaotic.
the question shouldnt be on whether the unlocks should be banned or allowed, but whether any of them add something worthwhile to the well balanced vanilla format.
if you think vanilla actually needs “more dimension” to it, it’s clear you aren’t aware of the wide variety of strategy already possible with medlocks only.
Last edited by kuma,
Quoted from skeej
I suddenly realized something which I think has never been mentioned yet, regarding the views on how the game should be played by the lower divs.
This is what makes TF2 problematic as a competitive game in the first place: pub play is TOTALLY different from comp play. Lower div players coming from pub play will have to learn the rules and adapt their playstyle anyway. Why give them input if they have to adapt to certain league rules anyway? Or do you want to give lower div players the possibility of being able to vote for a 12v12 or 16v16 league? When I started playing competitive, I didn’t ask questions… I just got told what I could use and what I couldn’t can’t use, and the dude abided.
Competitive TF2 evolved into this format for a *reason*. People have tried different things, and by trial-and-error we found out that something somewhere around vanilla+medlocks with only 1 demoman and 1 medic is the best idea. Why negate that evolved knowledge about the game? So yeah to put my words bluntly: higher div players should have bigger input on how things are run. Don’t ask me about the practicalities though xD
Also watch out Grimbar, before Kuma comes in and tell you he’s the only one who can use Sirlin quotes on the etf2l forum :P
Quoted from Monkeh
Yeah Gubbins, in some cases that is true, see fists of steel for a reference, but things like the shortstop are just not understood by a lot of people, especially as they get tweaked and nerfed almost with every update…oh….yeah…see fists of steel again!
If the voting system goes ahead I’d urge everyone of us to actually get on a pub server or lobby and play with these “OP” or “broken” weapons before you vote. Especially if the votes do get weighted for div placements.
@Skeej: I never said lower div players understand the game as much as higher div ones, that seems common sense to me, but weapons need playtime to fully understand and I doubt most of you higher guys play much pub or piss around with unlocks like us shit noobs do.
The only thing I react to when it comes to testing unlocks is the following, where do you draw the line? I mean looking at the amount of unlocks introduced lately, wouldn’t the game be in a continuous state of testing new unlocks? To clearly introduce and throughly test every unlock, even beyond quick estimations are going to take a lot of time. When is enough enough?
Also I would argue that gameplay on a public server shouldn’t constitute what is played in a competitive league; the amount of players differs, skill level (movement, aim, gamesense etc), public and comp are different can you really draw conclusions about one from the other?
Last edited by MR JOHNSON,
2 questions:
How many scouts would choose to use the shortstop?
How many soldiers would choose to use the direct hit?
@Vero: Fair point mate, but at least you can see damage being done and what not..?
@Skeej below: Yeah, good point, I’ve had my 2p
Last edited by Monkeh,
Just a general reminder that there is a fine line between “arguing about the process of establishing new league rules regarding unlocks and maps” and “arguing about new league rules regarding unlocks and maps”. Try to keep the discussion focussed on the former; as we’ve had way too much discussion about the latter already.
why do they even need that choice? it’s redundant
Last edited by kuma,
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