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Suggestions for "fair polls"
Created 25th April 2011 @ 21:41
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Definitely, People who are whining about tactics just because they cant deal with it, 6v6 does mean the needs scout/sollies/demo/med all the time, I agree with what you said about people only voting if they have played a season or two before. Does make sense.
About unlocks I think the only way to fix something like this is just have the option for officials vanilla/cinnamon, that way if certain teams really want vanilla they can use it, If one team disagrees the back to cinnamon, My opinion anyway.
As far as polls are concerned, #4 with giving more weight to the higher divisions sounds like a fine choice. And the polls shouldn’t be the end all to the decisions, if there is a good reason for something else to be included. Just like you did with bazillion and warmfront (spoiler: your reasoning was flawed and the decision was bad though :) )
In a perfect world though, you would just give me the choice over everything, since I am much smarter than all of you.
Quoted from Waebi
Force people to fucking vote.
It’s only fair if a team simply doesn’t want to vote.
Assuming the poll will be in a newspost, it’s “your loss” if you don’t vote on it.
The poll will be there to gather opinions. If you don’t want to give your opinion, that’s fine, but it nullifies your right to complain about decisions based on it. You’ve been given the option to have a say, you didn’t use it. Oh well. Moving on.
this thread is as pointless as letting div6 players (like racio) decide rules for prem div
as i previously thought, there is a grand total of 0 interest in this thread from prem players, bcs we all know div6 whiners will whine here till they get chance to vote and get their shitlocks
Well if there’s only 25% of votes, then having some competitive player council would be more useful, since that part that doesn’t participate in community activity should’t have a right to whine later.
Last edited by dauk,
Quoted from Waebi
[…]The solution?
Force people to fucking vote.
And when I say force, I mean force (“you cannot play in this season before you havent taken the time to fill out the following: SURVEY GOES HERE”)
That reminds me of map-votes on pub servers. “Press a random button so the dialog goes away” … I’m not sure if you’d want such votes.
Vote should come across div1-6 since this is a community league, however high divs are a dominating minority so votes should be weighted. Those saying div4-6 shouldn’t get a vote, they cant be rejected because they are the majority and they want to play their way, either its vanilla or unlocks, same for maps. Some l2adopt change and not play the game the same boring way you’ve been playing for 3 years, others want vanilla+medlocks. Votes to clear this, because its the only this can be decided.
#4 seems nice, and as someone stated, premx7 and d6x1.
Quoted from AnimaL
bcs we (uprem?) all know div6 whiners (who whines? oh wait..) will whine here till they get chance to vote and get their shitlocks
Why do you (prems?) disagree/afraid of a vote that gets you to know what this league really wants and not just your friend list? Prems can be weighted because they are dominating, low divs vote because they are majority.
EDIT: Also one thing, I guess voting about unlocks should be like:
Default Vanilla
Default Cinnamon
In case one wins, other will be optional on match page or so.
Last edited by WildEast,
I like this passage because it applies somewhat here.
“The best players are usually doing somewhat weird things that most players don’t understand. I picture a bell curve of “valuations” that players have about their game. What I mean is that there is a large number of players in the middle of that curve who share common beliefs about what is good and effective, and what is not. They represent the “conventional wisdom” about the game. But there are a few players at the extreme end of the bell curve who have different views on what is good. In their world, some of the commonly known tactics don’t work on elite players, so they are worthless. Some moves or tactics are seen as worthless to most, but the elite player has a very specialized or refined use of them that makes them highly effective. Basically, because these players are on a higher level of understanding about the game—either with an explicit, logical analysis or through inexplicable intuition—they see the game through different eyes and see different relative values. Sometimes the conventional wisdom is just wrong about a game, and only the best players are able to step out of the mold and not be bogged down by how the masses incorrectly think the game should be played. And these elite players very often cannot explain in full, logical, step-by-step detail exactly why they value one thing so much more than another. I think the mental process for arriving at these valuations and the process for fully explaining them to others are very different things. You are better off watching what the masters do than asking them why they do it.” — Sirlin, Playing to Win
Shoutout to skeej as he loves Sirlin
Quoted from dauk
Well if there’s only 25% of votes, then having some competitive player council would be more useful, since that part that doesn’t participate in community activity should’t have a right to whine later.
This has been suggested before, by me I think it was, and was rejected
To some up this thread, people want a polling system that guarantees their opinion wins the poll.
for V+M that means either only letting a certain division vote (say prem + div 1) or weighting their votes more (even though some of them don’t know what unlocks are)
Or you have players that like some unlocks, as they add to the game (like me) who hope that a fair 1 team 1 vote system will allow the majority view to win.
Either way unless the poll is conducted as a team signs up, a large proportion of teams will not give there view, as they don’t visit the site other than to check their default dates
Quoted from AnimaL
this thread is as pointless as letting div6 players (like racio) decide rules for prem div
as i previously thought, there is a grand total of 0 interest in this thread from prem players, bcs we all know div6 whiners will whine here till they get chance to vote and get their shitlocks
Please please please please if you are not interested in this league do not bother to post in here.
Sneis posted in here, by the way, but he is not prem, I guess?!
Quoted from dauk
I believe there may be not “pros” but at least few players from div 2-prem that would like to contribute to legue they play. I would definitely apply for that.
Well, we have baerbel.
Most players do underestimate the workload that it takes for running a league, I think.
It is not only done by deciding rules, you have to verfiy results, set default dates, settle match complaints, all that “boring” stuff too :D
I definitely think we could need some help for that and opinions from high(er) level players won’t harm at all (This is not an admin call though).
Updated the first post.
Last edited by CanFo,
Quoted from WildEast
Why do you (prems?) disagree/afraid of a vote that gets you to know what this league really wants and not just your friend list? Prems can be weighted because they are dominating, low divs vote because they are majority.
First of all, I’m not prem nor would I consider myself an authority on what a good/bad unlock/map is.
But if I’d wager a guess I would say that the majority of players in Prem are quite uninterested in playing by a rule set that has been created by a vote in the community, for the simple reason that a large majority of the community are quite clueless (me included).
Now there are different opinions about unlocks etc in the higher divisions, but I very much doubt that those differences are based on what the community thinks and not based on a different attitude toward the game.
Last edited by MR JOHNSON,
I still haven’t seen one valid argument about a different ruleset for different divisions.
I suddenly realized something which I think has never been mentioned yet, regarding the views on how the game should be played by the lower divs.
This is what makes TF2 problematic as a competitive game in the first place: pub play is TOTALLY different from comp play. Lower div players coming from pub play will have to learn the rules and adapt their playstyle anyway. Why give them input if they have to adapt to certain league rules anyway? Or do you want to give lower div players the possibility of being able to vote for a 12v12 or 16v16 league? When I started playing competitive, I didn’t ask questions… I just got told what I could use and what I couldn’t can’t use, and the dude abided.
Competitive TF2 evolved into this format for a *reason*. People have tried different things, and by trial-and-error we found out that something somewhere around vanilla+medlocks with only 1 demoman and 1 medic is the best idea. Why negate that evolved knowledge about the game? So yeah to put my words bluntly: higher div players should have bigger input on how things are run. Don’t ask me about the practicalities though xD
Also watch out Grimbar, before Kuma comes in and tell you he’s the only one who can use Sirlin quotes on the etf2l forum :P
Last edited by skeej,
-only players in teams for 3 weeks + get a vote.
*active players should get priority over league decisions
-only active teams get a vote
* the teams must have already played their first full season. (or every member of that team must have played a full season in another team)
-the higher your division, the higher percentage value you vote should have.
*because you have less players in your division normally. so basically work out an average so that each division ends up having a fair portion of the vote.
-prem gets a weight of 2 votes making a total of 8 division votes
*prem needs this because: we would still be playing with 8 people or 2 demomen and 2 meds if we had not listened to them in the past.
Last edited by Sketch,
Just an interesting piece of data, ignoring dropped teams, assuming that there are not more teams than the ones playing at the moment (actively), 10 teams per division. Assuming each teams get one vote each that would be along the lines of if each division is weighted equally:
34.3% 28.6% 17.1% 8.6% 5.7% 2.9% 2.9%
With a linearly increased weighting (i.e. d6 x1, d5 x2 .. prem x7, obviously the multiplier can change) would be:
14.1% 23.5% 21.8% 14.1% 11.8% 7.1% 8.2%
from d6 -> prem
If we on the other hand say that the voting power of all the combined d6 teams should equal the voting power of the d5 teams should equal the voting power of prem teams etc.. it would amount to:
0.12% 0.14% 0.24% 0.48% 0.71% 1.43% 1.43%
of voting power per team (once again with d6 -> prem)
Last edited by MR JOHNSON,
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