Forum

All right, I’ve been wanting to make a semi-informed response to such a thread for a while, let’s see if I can make it before this thread is closed.

First off, let’s get some things straight:

1) It says Site Admin under my name to the left. While my have been (head) admin if the ETF2L for quite a while, my only “formal” attachment nowadays is maintaining the website itself, nothing to do with the league.

2) In this position i have full access to everything on the website. I’ve had that since before any of the current (normal and AC) staff joined the admin team. Obviously this includes AC forums.

3) I know fuck all about cheating/detecting cheats. I’ve had access to a lot of demo’s used to ban people, and have watched some now and then. Turns out you can run around in front of me naked with a huge sign saying “I HACK”, and I probably wouldn’t even notice.

Having said that, let’s continue.

I don’t like the tone of some pieces of Kritzonite’s post. First, let me share yet another story against the whole “cheater’s can’t be nice guys” thing.

Moonroach. You’ll find him at the top of the bans page. He was part of my team, part of my community, he had been for a long time. We were one of those countless TF2 ocmmunities, playing TF2 on our public server, and doing some competetive on the side :) He was our pub server’s resident sniper, and a really nice guy ;) When we held our first meeting (20 people or so showed up) he was there, being the nice guy he was. We all liked him, and asked him to join our team as scout, which he did. Not long after that Demourge (Now, where have I heard that name before?) reported him to the admins (I already was admin at that time btw), and after investigation he got banned by ETF2L. He was our friend. After that he vanished without a trace, we never heard from him again. Nice guys can cheat, just as much as any other.

I’ll consider some people’s insinuations that the ACT bans people out of some kind of grudge as insults. What is that about, seriously? The idea that the fact that he plays in a much lower div that he is capable of matters is less ridiculous, but still nonsense. People who think those kind of things shouldn’t be AC admins, and I don’t believe they are.

About your conflict of interest story: Everyone plays TF2 + everyone who plays TF2 can’t be AC admin = No one can be AC admin. Or do you want american people checking european demos? I don’t think that’ll go down too well.

Oh, and, please stop insulting ETF2L, that’s just rude. I, and many with me, have spent hundreds of hours trying to make ETF2L what iit is today, and to continue making it better. SOme moderation would be in place.

due to an ACT log being leaked to us by someone sympathetic to our cause.

I don’t call this kind of people sympathetic, I call them vermin. If you have a problem, talk about it. Preferably internally, but if you must speak up, do it publicly, don’t hide and pass on private stuff anonymously.

With all this, I have no reason whatsoever to assume the AC admins were influenced in any way. They most likely haven’t met/played beaver ever. (The ones listed on the staff page play div 3+, not div 5)

Corruption? Don’t make me laugh. I can assure you these people are above the level of “Haha, let’s ban someone because it’s fun.” Besides that, I don’t think they have anything to gain.

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Having said that, there is an issue here. But I don’t think it’s of competence. (again, I’m not the best to judge that) If there is a competence issue, it’s not the most important thing. The most important is a lack of trust. And we all know why. The next paragraphs will be about trust, not about competence.

OF course it’s different for you guys that for me, cause I can see how the ACT works. All you see is an announcement: X is banned, end of story. But internally things are different as people are different. The last AC crew I trusted was that based around Winneh. (Him, Wlv, Jonni, maybe Anakin’ll get some points as well :)) After that it all went downhill. Maybe not in competence, but in trust, for me at least. Current AC staff is shit, as it has been for a while. THe old guys talked about stuff, brought up good points, etc. Now it’s just : X,Y and Z make 1 post, and it’s done.

This kinda thing is why I tried to create some kind of inter-league cooperation scheme thingy, to handle cheat cases a little more. Idea stolen from many other games. (ETAC, anyone?) This council would replace the independent AC guys every league had/has, it would be one place where all AC dudes came together and made decisions on possible cheaters. This all with a transparent set of guidelines, to ensure the correctness of the procedures. (Things like: how many evidence do you need, how many people need to “vote” to make a decision valid, etc.) Then if this council decided someone was cheating, associated leagues would ban him. Simple, efficient, somewhat independent, and transparent => trustworthy. Initial response was good, we entered discussion with all tournament organizers. It failed horribly after that, as some will remember. Maybe it’s time to try such a thing again.

PS: I also personally think that discussing things in a forum is good. You can help each other see/unsee things in a demo. If everyone just posts his private post, no one will ever learn a thing.

Quoted from DeNeusbeer

This kinda thing is why I tried to create some kind of inter-league cooperation scheme thingy, to handle cheat cases a little more. Idea stolen from many other games. (ETAC, anyone?) This council would replace the independent AC guys every league had/has, it would be one place where all AC dudes came together and made decisions on possible cheaters. This all with a transparent set of guidelines, to ensure the correctness of the procedures. (Things like: how many evidence do you need, how many people need to “vote” to make a decision valid, etc.) Then if this council decided someone was cheating, associated leagues would ban him. Simple, efficient, somewhat independent, and transparent => trustworthy. Initial response was good, we entered discussion with all tournament organizers. It failed horribly after that, as some will remember. Maybe it’s time to try such a thing again.

Maybe it is, any chance you still got the forum set up somewhere, as towards the end (before it died), there was a procedure that was almost ideal, maybe a baseline to follow.

By having an AC council you also increase the admins to share the work load. Good luck if you decide to give this another go.

also D2M respect for what you wrote.

Quoted from Tikcus

[…]

Maybe it is, any chance you still got the forum set up somewhere, as towards the end (before it died), there was a procedure that was almost ideal, maybe a baseline to follow.

By having an AC council you also increase the admins to share the work load. Good luck if you decide to give this another go.

also D2M respect for what you wrote.

I let it expire after a year. I’ve got nothing left of the project, besides some bits and pieces inside my head.

Anybody tried the two sponges and rubber glove yet?

Quoted from compton

[…]

Yes, I make analogies because apparently you still don’t get what I’m saying from my previous posts. You’re saying “bans = reduced cheating, therefore AC admins should strive for (=have a goal of) banning people”, I get your point and I disagree on the “bans = reduced cheating” part, because that’s a very black and white way of thinking as it has come apparent.

And for the record, I’m not a league admin so that I can kiss other peoples asses. I did not become a league admin that way, and I won’t be basing my opinions on whose ass I should kiss next. If that’s the way you think an admin should behave, it’s pretty clear that you shouldn’t be one or be telling others whether they’re suitable.

Either that or you apparantly don’t want to get what I’m saying .. I think I was rather lenient so far, but oh my god.. You should also try reading, I said banning cheaters(!) = reduced cheating (because you have less cheaters playing in the league since they’re banned, who’d have thought that would mean you have less cheaters in the league!?). Plus I said banning CHEATERS(!) should be/is a goal of the AC team which is one of the foundations that it was ever created.

I’m gonna guess you’re gonna misunderstand everything I said above, so I’ll make it simple for you by copying what you said / think I’m saying:

“bans = reduced cheating, therefore AC admins should strive for (=have a goal of) banning cheaters”

Black and white or not, it’s the realistic truth. If you ban cheaters you have less cheaters in your league, I don’t even see how you could disagree with that.

I never said you were an admin so you could kiss other people’s asses, apparantly you completely missed the point once again. I’m questioning why you are “part of team” if you don’t even have faith or support the team you’re part of. And me pointing out you do fuck all for etf2l and aren’t active enough to start with to be an admin is to question why you are a etf2l admin in the first place, nothing more, nothing less.

Quoted from tf2 is dead

im fucking scared, i got banned as innocent once so what keeps them from banning me again in the future or adding time to my ban. they are a plague on etf2l and they should fuck off. i dont know what kind of people they are in the ACT but somehow i have the image of them being 12 yo kiddies

Lenny, do us all finns and the rest etf2l players a break and go shoot yourself. Come back whenever your bans expires or something.

Quoted from tf2 is dead

im fucking scared, i got banned as innocent once so what keeps them from banning me again in the future or adding time to my ban. they are a plague on etf2l and they should fuck off. i dont know what kind of people they are in the ACT but somehow i have the image of them being 12 yo kiddies

youre so bad that if admins banned you its because you really cheated