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TF2 Ladder?
Created 29th July 2009 @ 19:32
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Coming from Source background myself (mostly ED as well), was astonished that there weren’t really any TF2 ladders running (well there was, but none of them were really all that active). Always found ladder games to be lot more interesting due to a number of facts, but in specific:
– They actually counted for something, points, so you’d never just wanna mess around, but try to give it your best to win, where as in PCW’s the situation could be different at times
– Was easy to schedule games with clans, both PCW and official ladder games, instead of trying to find them over IRC. And again, usually was more reliable as points were at stake.
– Easier to find games that match your skill exactly, by just looking for games around the same amount of points than you had yourself (being in the same div in a league doesn’t mean that the teams are always equal skill)
– Track of results, who beat who, when and by how much.
– Finding games a lot easier for specific times, as open challenges could be made weeks in advance, and you could find your games well before time.
– Some other ladders have had fun additional things such as virtual gambling for fixture results etc as well, which some enjoy, or real time tracking of player kills/deaths/scores from games through server plugins, for a central scoreboard of players (i.e. who has the best KPD in ladder games etc).
The ladder games were never as important as league games (obviously), but were often used to prepare for them. If for example de_nuke was the game to be played next week in the league, there were a lot of open challenges for the map etc. This sort of thing would never work without activity from users and clans, and as such ladders on ED etc have never really got going. However, I do partly believe the problem has been that there hasn’t really been anything like this designed for solely TF2 alone.
The point of this thread is to see if there would actually be interest from players and clans for such an idea and if anyone would have any additional views what they’d like to see in something like this, or why they wouldn’t be interested in it. It would be by no means a replacement to any of the leagues your clan would be already competing in, but more to replacing wars found and scheduled through IRC.
I dont see the point of this? Points? I’ve noticed that servers with hlstats (or other shit) usually house players who dont care about team/win etc. and just care about points. I know its stupid to compare pubs and pugs, but I see similar thing happening to clans. They will want to win win win nothing more.
Also, I think no ladder has some effect of the “unique” community we have here: minumum/no raging, anger, “skill-cult” and stuff like that.
P.S.: I’m not quite sure what you mean by ladder so I may be talking shit o_O
I’m for this. We used to use the ED 6v6 ladder for a bit but there was only about 10 active teams.
Like you say, it’s good for arranging matches and keeping track of scores =]
a css ladder: http://www.enemydown.co.uk/ladder.php?ladder=28
If a team A with for example 4000 points beats a team B with 5000, tean A might get 20 points and the team B would lose those 20 points. If team B would beat team A, the points gained/lost would be a lot smaller (as they are ranked better and expected to win).
Ladders shouldnt be confused with hlxstats, 2 completely different things. The points gained and lost are for the team, not the players.
And another thing Jh suggested is the ‘Map of the week’ ED used to have, which could be used to introduce new maps, or better said, encourage clans to play them, and to try them out, due to the extra value (in points) of playing a “Map of the week”
Ladders are awful.
Yeah thats what I imagined.
Tbh I dont see anything wrong with plain old simple PCW’s… I’m not against ladders, just dont see any point to them.
well the only ladders tf2 had were on cb and ed, which are both quite utter shit. go figure
personally I kinda dislike em
I think that many people don’t like ladders for TF2, and TF2 doesn’t have as many teams as CSS.
When ESL TF2 started, I remember that it was a ladder, and IIRC many people didn’t like it and complained, that’s why we now have a league.
I don’t think ladders really work for 6on6 TF2.
BTW if you search the forum there was already a topic about this.
There was a point where etf2l members wanted a ladder but etf2l refused, so there is a proportion of members who wanted a ladder. The reason previous ladders have failed is not down to the concept but rather the league.
edit: i love how quick people are to say they hate ladders, without justifying themselves.
The justification is that they have nothing to gain and something to lose. If you’re observant you’ll notice that top teams and practically all teams above mid skill tend not to want ladders and don’t play in them in a developed scene.
Logical reason for this is that teams and players who feel like they have some kind of reputation or status that is better than the majority much prefer to lose in practice matches behind closed curtains instead of for all to see. They also don’t want people to see when they are having a losing streak and don’t want to see it themselves either.
Since in TF2’s case the scene is quite close knit and generally speaking teams know how they match up against others there is no reason for a ladder other than as a show of statistics on how good or bad teams fare up against others and how good or bad their recent performances have been.
Basically, most of the lower skill teams with the exception of completely clueless noob gamers who don’t think about these things and/or have absolutely nothing to lose from failing won’t be interested because they’d rather not be benchmarked in results against better teams and have a horrible win/loss record. All the good, well established teams who have worked for some status/reputation/recognition won’t be interested because they think playing in a ladder could compromise that and their own ego’s if they happen to do worse than expected or have a few totally unexpected losses.
This only leaves the in-betweeners that are progressing and want to make the leap towards becoming a team with status and recognition amongst those that already have it, e.g. teams that want a chance to prove they are worthy of playing in a higher division than they are actually in. This is a minority in an already small community which is why TF2 is unlikely to have an active ladder at any time in the forseeable future.
For new scenes it’s a different story, like when TF2 was first released and for a few months the ED ladder was used as the benchmark from which team skill/performance was recognised, before any team had particular status in the scene. Obviously at this time it was the best of very few options and also served as a way of judging how active the competitive community was in its infancy.
Personally I like ladders, especially individual ladders (1v1) because I’m a total stat whore and have the confidence necessary to commit to it. Also helps to give me some incentive to try hard and play at my peak instead of just giving it a half-arsed effort because there is a tangible payoff and penalty (statistics) for winning and losing respectively.
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