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Where do you draw the line?
Created 17th July 2009 @ 01:03
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Before I get started, this thread is genuinely intended to promote constructive debate, and NOT to flame teams / players.
For those who don’t know, tonight Imperial played YoYoTech in the EMS Lower Bracket Final – you can get all the details here: http://www.resupply.eu/index.php?site=news_comments&newsID=98
In their lineup, Imperial fielded 3 players who aren’t European, and who ping well over 100 to European servers – havoK, Pure and Seagull. Whilst this isn’t ETF2L, all 3 of those players are listed in their ETF2L roster and can/have played in official ETF2L games. As most people know, ping makes a big difference to how well players respond to the server, and can effect how much damage players are able to give and receive.
My question is, where do we draw the line and say that the European TF2 League, or any other Euro league for that matter, should be for Euro players only? According to the ETF2L rules, a “Server needs to provide your opponent a playable ping”, but this just isn’t possible if you have players from America, right the way over to Israel (in Imperial’s case).
I’m honestly not trying to start a flame war, or try and provoke Imperial players because firstly I respect the guys in the team, and secondly because I know how hard it is to recruit players at the top level when there are so few around. However, I do think that tonights game perhaps raises some pretty important questions, when half of a team competing in a European event isn’t European.
And after all, would this be allowed in lower divisions?
It is too hard to find non clanned, experienced and talented players who are based in Europe.
The players you listed are the best players available to us that we want to use.
If you dont allow us to use these players, then we need to find three players, who as said before are “non clanned, experienced and talented players who are based in Europe”. It takes too long to get players to a div1 level without any experience, and so picking American pros just makes things simple, and there are simply no options otherwise.
I dont see how you can expect us to suffer from weeks and months of downtime because our new players are new to div1.
But at the same time, I don’t see how you can expect the rest of Div 1 to have a serious disadvantage against your players?
I understand your position, but I think it’s potentially quite unfair that you guys DON’T have to go through finding new players and build a good European squad, whilst other Div 1 teams who do are forced to play against players from around the world in a European league.
Whether the teammates you stick with for a year and a half remain in your team in that time is purely random.
Me Beast and Nub have been in this single team for that time, and the other positions have always been swapped regularly, through no control of our own.
Finding new players that are good enough is also random. Teams folding gives the community usually 3-4 players to take, but it doesnt happen often. There is no other input into the community. Either you steal players, you take them from dead clans, or find players that arent div1, and hope they are when they join you.
Also a 130 ping causes much more penalty to that player than the opposition in my opinion, and blaming a whole map loss on players with high ping is just a scapegoat.
Anyway, for a team like us there are no other options. We either take decent players and keep our team div1, or we restart everything by having players that arent good enough… This can go on endlessly, if your new players get better and were to leave, or if your older players leave from boredom of being div2 standard.
In the end the result is teams in our position cant compete at a high level, there are less clans that can claim the number 1 spot, and the scene becomes more boring. Dignitas have shown they are number 1, their players arent going to get bored of losing, and they can pretty much grab any div1 player who wants a free ride if they lose a player.
How does changing the current system benefit anyone but whiners who cant kill a guy, and blame the lag?
I have always found it easy to hit 100 ping players with my 30 ping, just as i have found it easy to hit 30 ping players using 100 myself. Maybe that raises questions as to why i do not play for dignitas?
As far as i’m concerned you’re doing it wrong, questions arise when you’re playing european players that have 100 ping because they are genuinely lagging, the non euro’s playing with 100 ping obviously (or perhaps more suitably, “usually”) do not lag atall and that goes for all the “ping” whiners who blame their lack of aim on american pings. Not that you do not have aim Dave, i’m just simply grouping all the crybabies that whine when they play against these players when really, their just better players than them.
People should welcome them since their part of the reason why division 1 didn’t completely epic fail this season.
PURE4LIFE.
I like that there is no rule to avoid players from non-europe as long your are playing on a european server.
E.g. soldier whos are used to play on pings like 50 during their usual games, dont have it easy on a match when facing 150+ pings.
I think even a complete e.g. american (top) team should be allowed to play an european League if they accept their rules (server, time).
Why are you raging about one map? Its gravel pit, Imperial had an American of course they won!
Tbh i agree with cheetah, if they can play with that ping then they should be allowed :S and its only really difficult to aim if your pings jumping thats the only thing (ive seen) that affects it… But then again playing soldier on an american server is alot different even if your ping is stable..
Now Russians, they’re bad.
They KNOW how to play with 110 ping, they KNOW you can’t hit them. And at night they stalk up behind you and make you suck their dicks.
Madness.
Now Russians, they’re bad.
They KNOW how to play with 110 ping, they KNOW you can’t hit them. And at night they stalk up behind you and make you suck their dicks.
Madness.
And how about them turkies? You just spread and take it…………. wait what??
jesus took me way too long to dig out this baby:
http://rikerwii.ytmnd.com/
I play US and European TF2. It is much harder to play with a higher ping even though players seem to think they ‘hit more’ with one.
The differences:
The player with 100+ ping still needs to hit a player dead on, client side. The opposing player might think he is behind a corner but obviously on the high pinging players computer, he is not, so the hit registers (client side prediction). This works both ways, the low pinging player will see the high pinging player first if he strafes out from a corner. Sometimes the high pinger will be instafragged the very second he see’s the low pinger walk round the corner, looking like almost unhuman reactions.
It is 10x harder to dodge projectiles with a high ping. Projectiles hit you from miles away which makes them feel like they are moving faster. With a high ping you actually have to predict where a rocket is going to be shot and dodge your prediction. With a low ping you have time to react and time to dodge the rocket after you see where it is going to hit.
Some people in this community really do cry about anything. Remember this is Internet gaming. You might want to ban say, Americans from playing, but what is there to stop me from deliberatly increasing my ping to get the same effect? What happens for people who have unavoidable connection issues? Other side of Europe players? Routing issues?
Just play the game and stop moaning about tiny annoying things. Oh no he has a high ping, I miss a few shots, he hits a few blah blah. It’s the netcode and without this current one, everyone would be moaning if their ping was higher than 20.
If they want to enter the league, i dont see why they shouldn’t be able to providing they play on European servers.
The other way to put it for you is.. well why don’t you ask to play the match on an American server? then you can’t complain as you will be the ones with the high pings.
^ agree.
I’m an European player, but always have ~100 ping to the whole Europe (stupid ISP!). Before that I used to play with ~30 ping and noticed that with higher ping the game becomes a lot faster paced: You can hit easier, but it’s near imposible to dodge anything. Sometimes I can see a nade flying 1m to a side from me but it still hits me… WTF??? I guess same thing happens when people have to dodge my rockets.
Even when you break down latency technically, high ping players can throw low pingers off psychologically. Missing a shot or dying because someone else had a lag spike is really, really frustrating. On the other hand, the high pinger expects the lag, so it doesn’t come as a surprise, therefore, not as frustrating.
I personally can hold my temper if it’s a league match, but I totally understand why some people only want to play against people with max 50-70 ping.
Hit reg, Lagging etc aside. One of the main questions i’d ask Imperial is are these americans actual clan players?
Do they stick around after games do you talk to them like any normal clan member or do they kinda wake up in america play some tf2 officials in the afternoon, then nob off to play american games? :).
If they are actual contributing clan members i dont see much of a problem, but if NOAM and co are just using them as merc’s to keep them in division 1 because they dont wish to train up any one else or search then thats just pretty boring.
That being said i’ve not got any problems with the americans they always seem ok guys with awesome aim.
Imperial could be the new Arsenal! No home grown players soon.
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