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Dead Ringer Ban Discussion
Created 25th October 2016 @ 15:18
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Quoted from Toast
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This is so wrong it hurts. You have no idea of how the class works, and that you have had any involvment in deciding for this season makes me want to stab myself. It’s not a better watch, it’s not made for countering snipers and it doesn’t require any more or less thinking than invis watch in any way. Anyone who says that hasnt played the class.
And suprise, suprise: The reason presented to ban this is “it’s annoying” among other reasons that weren’t mentioned. I agree with Ubers and goreston, it should not be as it is now and Im kinding hoping someone from valve played around with the dead ringer and will change it for the pyro update., but that is no reason to ban it. It’s almost equivalent to banning gunboats in respect to how much playstyle it destroys.
Personally I think it’s a better watch. I’m still on the Razorback/DR should be banned/unbanned as a pair train though.
I think DR should be nerfed in the same way you think though; then I think they’ll be balanced.
I think the dr getting nerfed is the ideal solution, but right now it’s comfortably the strongest watch, hence a great quantity of spies running it exclusively. The razorback should be banned with it so we don’t see the meta dominated even further by snipers
Quoted from Steve!
Valve doesn’t really give a shit what leagues ban, only what gets used by players in their (valve’s) logs.
By banning weapons you’re actually making them less likely to get used in pubs and therefore less likely to get tweaked
Following that logic, Valve will buff the DR even more so people use it more in Pubs again. Please no…
I think the most disappointing thing in this whole affair is that the decision was made because “the DR is annoying” and decided by a popularity vote. Not solid arguments that were weighed against each other.
Quoted from Bulow
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Isn’t it a bit cheeky to criticise someone for trying to look superior without engaging with arguments, when you created a comedy poll in it’s own separate thread that doesn’t engage with any arguments? Or is this thread SRS BSNS because it is in the General TF2 section whereas yours is allowed to be silly because it’s in General ETF2L? Pls explain.
I think there’s a place for obviously silly shit-posting and serious discussion. Tbh, I wouldn’t even have objected to an obviously silly shit-post in this thread. I just thought it was bollocks to claim nobody was making any reasoned arguments when the opposite was so blatantly true.
Also, while I don’t regret my obviously silly shit-post (fuck you I still think it’s funny), when I posted it, comments on the season announcement were closed, the thread from yesterday was deleted, and this thread had yet to be started. I assumed ETF2L were censoring any actual discussion of the ban, and reacted accordingly.
I hope this is sufficient explanation.
Quoted from Goreston
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The thing is, you ignored the fact that plenty of people have put actual reasoning behind their opinions. Steve, Toast, ubrs and Kuli have all written decent explanations for their stance on the ban, and while I don’t agree with the arguments Chronos and Extrasolar have used, they are definitely there. Your post was just a neat way to look vaguely superior to both sides without actually having to do any reading.Oh, and I wasn’t being defensive. I was attacking you, you spanner.
Not here they haven’t. Generalisations for comedic purposes.
I wasn’t trying to look superior. I’ve read the entire discussion, and it’s more or less all shit-flinging. I could turn this right back around and say that this post of yours is a way to ignore someone calling you out for ad hominem without being made to stop doing so, but this is my first time bothering with ETF2L discussions, and I’m not particularly bothered anyway: I dislike HL as of late, I’m literally here because a friend said “lol look at this”.
Because attacking something or someone can never be done in a defensive manner? :)
In reality there aren’t legions of spies terrorizing the league with broken DR shenanigans, there are 2, maybe 3 who are good with it and a handful of others try to copy them and do literally nothing because they don’t have the aim to be effective and the DR makes it hard for them to get stabs, so basically they spend the whole map dead ringering behind you and achieving nothing. As long as you aren’t dumb enough to get baited into chasing a spy who can’t hit headshots anyway you are fighting 9v8 now (a big ask from some players it seems).
If it was really so badly overpowered and in need of a ban, why did only 2 spies actually main DR in prem last season, most spies didn’t play that style because they couldn’t be effective with it, what more evidence do you need that it’s not overpowered when 3/4 of spies don’t run it anyway.
People have voted to ban it just because it annoys them and their spy doesn’t run it. It’s an easy way to try and nerf teams you can’t beat fairly.
Last edited by EmilioEstevez,
Quoted from Goreston
I agree with this, although I don’t see it as a reason to ban the dead ringer. The opposite in fact: if you have to be good with the ambassador to make the DR worth running, then it doesn’t seem like the problem is with the DR.
This.
Apart from what Toast already mentioned (removing random bonuses to the DR) I’d go as far and say that the Ambassador is to be nerfed in order to get rid of the bashing the DR gets after the recent patches. Because the DR is always criticised when it’s used in combination with the Ambassador. In fact, it seems pointless to run any other gun with the DR. Could be as simple as that: Ambassador headshot damage reduced by 30%. Would be less annoying in an instant, wouldn’t it?
Also, don’t get me started on why the Spy fields a weapon with headshot capability in a game that already has a Sniper.
Quoted from Chronos
I think the dr getting nerfed is the ideal solution, but right now it’s comfortably the strongest watch, hence a great quantity of spies running it exclusively. The razorback should be banned with it so we don’t see the meta dominated even further by snipers
The problem with this is that almost every spy playing right now is more effective playing with the invis watch. I ran it yesterday. The dead ringer is better in some situations, but it is so obviously not better in some other situations. Personally I run it cause it’s fun for me, if I was to be as effective as I could be Id run more a combo. Same goes with grenjabob (I think), and he has shown that he, without much practice, can do way better than pretty much all other spies playing right now (playing against better teams). If mik and zeman ran invis more often they’d be way more effective than they are right now.
Last edited by Toast,
Quoted from gost
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Not here they haven’t. Generalisations for comedic purposes.
But that’s literally not true. All the people I mentioned in my reply to you have posted their reasoning. You may not agree with them, but to describe this entire thread as “shit-flinging” is ridiculous.
Quoted from Goreston
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But that’s literally not true. All the people I mentioned in my reply to you have posted their reasoning. You may not agree with them, but to describe this entire thread as “shit-flinging” is ridiculous.
Note how you crop out the part of my response that would make this post redundant.
Quoted from gost
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Note how you crop out the part of my response that would make this post redundant.
Here’s what I cropped out:
Quoted from gost
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I wasn’t trying to look superior. I’ve read the entire discussion, and it’s more or less all shit-flinging. I could turn this right back around and say that this post of yours is a way to ignore someone calling you out for ad hominem without being made to stop doing so, but this is my first time bothering with ETF2L discussions, and I’m not particularly bothered anyway: I dislike HL as of late, I’m literally here because a friend said “lol look at this”.Because attacking something or someone can never be done in a defensive manner? :)
You describe the whole thread as “shit-flinging”, which I completely disagree with, and alluded to in my post. Nothing in the rest of the post changes any of that. You call me out for ad hominem, and for ignoring said call out, then claim (in your third post on this thread) that you aren’t bothered about this thread.
The only bit I ignored is you calling me out for ad hominem for accusing you of attempting to look superior. This doesn’t change the fact that I completely disagree with your main argument, ie. that this thread contains no reasoning and is all shit-flinging. Nevertheless, I apologise for accusing you of trying to look superior. It’s clear to me now that this was wrong. I should have accused you of being completely incapable of basic reading comprehension.
if you have shit positioning you deserve to die. don’t understand the controversy behind the dr ban, it’s completely justified. :D
Why ban weapons which have been part of the whitelist for 10 seasons in a row? What is so unbalanced about them after 10 seasons that we need to ban them other than the fact certain players were consulted and thought it was a good idea to ban DR because it weakens one of the best players on the best team in the league at present.
Just answer me this question satisfactorily and I’ll support the ban. But by stating these weapons were unbalanced in the first place is not a logical argument. Stating that they will improve the quality of games is debatable depending on your perspective enjoyment of the gamemode and stating that “X Class will help X Class counter Y Class cos X Weapon is banned…etc etc” is a a dangerous precedent to set because it can be applied to any weapon and a number of classes. Not to mention the numerous other issues with the thought of allowing teams to vote on banning controversial weapons.
I think to go back to this, Admins need to start again and discuss what the purpose is of the whitelist, because I am lost now by the decisions made. What is the purpose of the whitelist? Originally in HLS2 (Cool fact, no whitelist in HLS1) it was designed to remove glitched weapons and weapons that are designated to be unbalanced (Definition of unbalanced was not as clear) but you see the point is there was a purpose. Is this the purpose of it now? Because if it is, I don’t get why these weapons are being discussed/banned.
Quoted from Hildreth
Why ban weapons which have been part of the whitelist for 10 seasons in a row? What is so unbalanced about them after 10 seasons that we need to ban them other than the fact certain players were consulted and thought it was a good idea to ban DR because it weakens one of the best players on the best team in the league at present.
Just answer me this question satisfactorily and I’ll support the ban. But by stating these weapons were unbalanced in the first place is not a logical argument. Stating that they will improve the quality of games is debatable depending on your perspective enjoyment of the gamemode and stating that “X Class will help X Class counter Y Class cos X Weapon is banned…etc etc” is a a dangerous precedent to set because it can be applied to any weapon and a number of classes. Not to mention the numerous other issues with the thought of allowing teams to vote on banning controversial weapons.
I think to go back to this, Admins need to start again and discuss what the purpose is of the whitelist, because I am lost now by the decisions made. What is the purpose of the whitelist? Originally in HLS2 (Cool fact, no whitelist in HLS1) it was designed to remove glitched weapons and weapons that are designated to be unbalanced (Definition of unbalanced was not as clear) but you see the point is there was a purpose. Is this the purpose of it now? Because if it is, I don’t get why these weapons are being discussed/banned.
Okay friend let me explain something since you seem to be new here, banning the DR is NOT the same thing as admin abuse. I’m sick and tired of you trolls popping up everywhere and spreading BLATANT misinformation. In many countries banning the DR is considered normal and healthy and human beings have a natural attraction to spies who are not abusing unlocks. being attracted to spies who are using the DR is fucking sick and disgusting but only in the us does there seem to be this unwarranted taboo around healthy and normal male sexuality.
I don’t even know why I’m talking to you, you’re clearly economically illetrate it’s simply clear that the invisible hand of the free market will solve everything for example if I wanted to be a spy not using the DR it would finaly be NORMAL and all I’d have to do would be to give a compensation to my private militia in order to propose a change to the whitelist so we can have a voluntary mutually beneficial exchange. You fucking hypocrites.
((Edited with a different modified copypasta because the last one was too awful))
Last edited by Grenja,
Quoted from Goreston
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Here’s what I cropped out:
[…]
You describe the whole thread as “shit-flinging”, which I completely disagree with, and alluded to in my post. Nothing in the rest of the post changes any of that. You call me out for ad hominem, and for ignoring said call out, then claim (in your third post on this thread) that you aren’t bothered about this thread.
The only bit I ignored is you calling me out for ad hominem for accusing you of attempting to look superior. This doesn’t change the fact that I completely disagree with your main argument, ie. that this thread contains no reasoning and is all shit-flinging. Nevertheless, I apologise for accusing you of trying to look superior. It’s clear to me now that this was wrong. I should have accused you of being completely incapable of basic reading comprehension.
Resorting to strawman due to anger 101, feat. more ad hominem
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