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Dead Ringer Ban Discussion
Created 25th October 2016 @ 15:18
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Apparently, the official news post was locked for comments. Posting here now.
The DR per se is not broken. Even though people tend to complain about it because (in combination with the ambassador) it favors/enables an annoying style to play against. That’s just people whining, nothing else. The only serious concern I might have with the DR is the speed buff it got in the last big balance patch. Genereally buffed movement speed for the spy in combination with a DR-related movement speed buff and damage reduction after DR’ing is something one could argue about. It forced adaption to a new spy timing (which players should have gotten used to by now) but most importantly it boosted the over all survivability of the spy. That’s why I voted to ban the Spy-cicle instead of the DR itself when there was a questionnaire sent to several (3?) teams that were already confirmed for S11. A Spy-cicle ban would have made the spy at least a bit more vulnerable again (to pyros spychecking). You catch a spy, you kill a spy. There’s no guaranteed easy way out anymore in this situation. The DR-ambassador combination would still be a thing because – here I agree with Steve – it’s currently the highest rewarding meta to adapt to when playing spy. And this is totally fine! (And please: There’s no need for a discussion about skill ceilings, even 6s players can play Spy, LUL.)
I feel like a DR ban is quite comparable with, let’s say, a Wrangler ban: It kills off everything around the current meta and would cripple teams’ strategies on certain maps; even though ‘it’s only one item for one class out of nine’. I’m not against banning/changing certain metas but you have to communicate things like this damn well beforehand. Instead of testing shitty custom maps which will never be included in any season at any point in time there could have been a cup without DR and without Razorback. It still would have been a whinefest but at least it would have lead to a better picture of what people want for the new season – when there’s actually time left for the league to respond to the feedback.
With the current trend of allowing rather more than less weapons – yes, I’m looking at 6s whitelists after Valve’s torturing MM specifications – we shouldn’t start randomly banning highly used weapons like the DR.
Or – if the DR has to be banned – the Razorback should be banned as well. To make a bullshit argument: the classes of Spy and Sniper are quite connected, remember the 2009 patch called ‘Spy vs. Sniper Update’? Guess which weapons were introduced to the game? Exactly! DR/Ambassador and Razorback/Jarate. I mean, come on! Even Valve recognized that there’s something like an interdependence. If you want to alter the way one of these two classes is played then do it right: Cripple both of them at the same time please.
Apart from that, banning the DR bugs me insofar as this is going to be a one time thing. S12 will feature it again, I’m pretty sure. In addition, Hildreth is right saying that a DR ban is nothing else than a tactical shot against teams with prominent gun spies who actually get shit done with this respective playstyle (SO’s toast and SDCK’s zemanwithnoears imo). So, ban a weapon for only one season just to follow a biased ‘vote’ by prem team leaders being dead keen on any tactical advantage they can get for their teams? BS. I also doubt that anyone thought about this ban’s impact on lower divisions’ playstyles. I bet – despite giving the shivers to Hildreth – that the whole season would have been better off if there had been an open community vote on these unlocks. Just let everyone have a say in this shitfest of a far too late discussion.
Quoted from Rick May
[…]
listening to u defending dr is almost as retarded as listening to a pyro defend rs
Listen to anyone else then, doesn’t matter. Let’s see how many good players will back you up in an unban for reserve shooter lol
Quoted from kuli
A Spy-cicle ban would have made the spy at least a bit more vulnerable again (to pyros spychecking).
I don’t think any spy(or very few) uses spy-cicle anymore since dead ringer gives the same effect(as in extinguishes you) when triggered. So banning spy-cicle isn’t really necessary and wouldn’t really change anything.
Last edited by Just1s,
Quoted from Chronos
I agree with the dr ban as it is by far the most effective way for spies to play right now.
I agree with the [insert weapon] ban as it is by far the most effective way for [insert class] to play right now.
Degreaser, Pyro
Medigun, Medic
Sandvich, Heavy
Sticky Launcher, Demo
Rescue Ranger, Engie
It’s like shooting fish in a barrel on here sometimes.
Last edited by Goreston,
Quoted from Just1s
I don’t think any spy(or very few) uses spy-cicle anymore since dead ringer gives the same effect(as in extinguishes you) when triggered. So banning spy-cicle isn’t really necessary and wouldn’t really change anything.
Yeah, I kinda skipped that. DR afterburn immunity is supposed to be a bug which hopefully gets fixed (Valve?), lel.
Quoted from Toast
[…]
that you have had any involvment in deciding for this season makes me want to stab myself.it doesn’t require more thinking than invis watch in any way.
.
1st bit: please do
2nd bit: I agree completely that dr requires much less thinking, your positioning can be much worse with dr and you can get away with it
Quoted from kuli
[…]
Yeah, I kinda skipped that. DR afterburn immunity is supposed to be a bug which hopefully gets fixed (Valve?), lel.
I actually think they fixed it to this state after it was changed in whatever update it was. I wouldn’t be suprised though if they come out the woodworks saying it was a bug anyway. They should just give DR a speed penalty and remove all the random bonusses. Would be nice to see them changing this in the pyro update, but its valve so who the fuck knows, they might just buff.
Quoted from Goreston
[…]
It’s mostly in the gun.
The entire playstyle is enabled by the DR.
Pick one.
[…]
The degreaser. The black box. The sticky launcher. The righteous bison. The entire heavy class. That’s off the top of my head, but I’m sure there are more.
The skill in the playstyle and the playstyle being enabled are two entirely different things. The skill in the playstyle is in the gun and the enabling of the playstyle is in the watch.
A playstyle being enabled and the skill in a playstyle aren’t necessarily part of the same weapon. The skill isn’t in the use of the DR, it’s in the gun. Although both unlocks are required for the playstyle, you don’t need skill to use the DR, but you need skill to use the gun. No matter how good you are with the gun, the DR is the enabler required to exploit the gun skill to the fullest. Doesn’t make the DR skilled.
As for your second argument:
Degreaser was buffed
Black Box was tweaked
Sticky Launcher was nerfed due to a rampup big and pubbers being upset
Righteous Bison was a developer mistake because the team thought it was bugged, it was never a problem weapon
And Heavy was nerfed because pubbers cried ever since the 119th update.
Quoted from Toast
They should just give DR a speed penalty and remove all the random bonusses. Would be nice to see them changing this in the pyro update, but its valve so who the fuck knows, they might just buff.
Ye, this is what I’m mostly on about. Once again dependent on Valve. FeelsBadMan
Last edited by kuli,
DR requires less thinking if you wanna stay alive. Spy is a pick class not a class thats entire purpose is to stay alive
In order to have a big impact on the game, DR requires the same amount of thinking, or more considering that you can get big stabs by just constatly going for them with Invis Watch (think chooper from Feila, a premiership spy).
Consider for a second that if you brainlessly just use DR to go behind, you’ll just put yourself in a situation where you can’t shoot the big targets again and either die or are forced into DR feign. Rinse and repeat until boredom. Ergo having no impact on the game in that time other than distracting a few flank players.
If you use IW brainlessly, you will more often than not at least have players in front of you facing the same direction, which is already a big step towards having a round winning stab.
A perfect IW spy (aim, gamesense and ability to position for picks) will always be much better than a perfect DR spy. An IW spy can still get headshots and run away from fights, a DR spy can’t position for picks nearly as easily.
Last edited by Steve!,
rofl, i have the feeling that since the UNIVERSAL WHITELIST (cuz americans and euros play lots together right) admins in every league are just burned out , and let the ban decisions be delegated to the captains, and as everyone should know, team captains are autistic dumb fucks who only made the team to be carried and should have no responsibility whatsoever except organising everything. Why? well, look at invite/prem delegations such as: Let’s go vanilla pre i46, or the american system of random bans and unbans based on the mood of some bipolar yank streamer. But this one, lmao, come on, who thought i’d be smart to remove the crutch for the newbs. I mean spy mains are prolly the biggest group of kiddos trying to get into hl and now you just discouraged them, or made the game ten times more unfun ,cuz every stacked lobby they’ll play vs autistic furry pyro main that only spychecks (99% of all pyros..) Man those kiddos sure think this is a fun game and worthwhile to get into the community.
Dumb, dumber, the new 6s andf hl whitelists.
Last edited by Sacrilege,
Quoted from extrasolar
[…]
The skill in the playstyle and the playstyle being enabled are two entirely different things. The skill in the playstyle is in the gun and the enabling of the playstyle is in the watch.
A playstyle being enabled and the skill in a playstyle aren’t necessarily part of the same weapon. The skill isn’t in the use of the DR, it’s in the gun. Although both unlocks are required for the playstyle, you don’t need skill to use the DR, but you need skill to use the gun. No matter how good you are with the gun, the DR is the enabler required to exploit the gun skill to the fullest. Doesn’t make the DR skilled.
Thank you for clarifying. I agree with this, although I don’t see it as a reason to ban the dead ringer. The opposite in fact: if you have to be good with the ambassador to make the DR worth running, then it doesn’t seem like the problem is with the DR.
Quoted from extrasolar
[…]
As for your second argument:
Degreaser was buffed
Black Box was tweaked
Sticky Launcher was nerfed due to a rampup big and pubbers being upset
Righteous Bison was a developer mistake because the team thought it was bugged, it was never a problem weapon
And Heavy was nerfed because pubbers cried ever since the 119th update.
I’ll ignore the degreaser, because this isn’t the place for pyro mains to cry about the degreaser.
I’d say black box was definitely a nerf: it went from 15 HP per player hit to max 20 HP per shot.
Regardless, we agree that the other three weapons were nerfed, and none of them were banned.
Conclusion: being banned in a league is not a necessary condition for a weapon to be nerfed by valve.
Valve doesn’t really give a shit what leagues ban, only what gets used by players in their (valve’s) logs.
By banning weapons you’re actually making them less likely to get used in pubs and therefore less likely to get tweaked
Quoted from
[…]
no lol
I’m just laughing at all of it, this is my first post on here, I want no part in this
Not everything is to make someone feel better about themselves, you know, no need to be defensive
The thing is, you ignored the fact that plenty of people have put actual reasoning behind their opinions. Steve, Toast, ubrs and Kuli have all written decent explanations for their stance on the ban, and while I don’t agree with the arguments Chronos and Extrasolar have used, they are definitely there. Your post was just a neat way to look vaguely superior to both sides without actually having to do any reading.
Oh, and I wasn’t being defensive. I was attacking you, you spanner.
Last edited by Goreston,
Quoted from Goreston
[…]
The thing is, you ignored the fact that plenty of people have put actual reasoning behind their opinions. Steve, Toast, ubrs and Kuli have all written decent explanations for their stance on the ban, and while I don’t agree with the arguments Chronos and Extrasolar have used, they are definitely there. Your post was just a neat way to look vaguely superior to both sides without actually having to do any reading.Oh, and I wasn’t being defensive. I was attacking you, you spanner.
Isn’t it a bit cheeky to criticise someone for trying to look superior without engaging with arguments, when you created a comedy poll in it’s own separate thread that doesn’t engage with any arguments? Or is this thread SRS BSNS because it is in the General TF2 section whereas yours is allowed to be silly because it’s in General ETF2L? Pls explain.
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