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Quoted from xzr

[…]

So the demo is a defensive class. I reckon the scattergun damage should be ramped down a bit so that the scouts can concentrate on scouting a bit more.

Scout has shit health and is supposed to be a offensive class, scattergun is also single target burst not splash damage = Argument invalid

if you launch tf2 and go to the class menu you will realize that valve split the 9 classes in subcategories such as offensive ( Scout soldier pyro) defensive (demoman,heavy,engineer) and support classes (medic, sniper, spy)
http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/8JoxQPo7B18/maxresdefault.jpg

welcome to tf2

Quoted from smziii

if you launch tf2 and go to the class menu you will realize that valve split the 9 classes in subcategories such as offensive ( Scout soldier pyro) defensive (demoman,heavy,engineer) and support classes (medic, sniper, spy)
http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/8JoxQPo7B18/maxresdefault.jpg

welcome to tf2

So you would call pyro an offensive class? Damn valve really nailed those definitions.

Quoted from smziii

[…]

it doesnt matter if i call pyro an offensive class, i am just trying to show you that demoman was supposed to be a defensive class and with the new update it is :) It is still viable in 6s, good demos still get 10k damage with a different playstyle tho (less w+m1/m2 more area controll precise spam). I played about 10 pug2 games since the update and there wasnt a single match so far where the game felt really slow or anything except once on snakewater but that might be down to the map.
So i find it kinda weird that you are drawing so many conclusions even tho you havent even played tf2 since the new update ;)

And by your extensive post-update experience what additional value does the nerf provide?

So I reckon scouts should be buffed in order to also do 10k damage?????????++
It’s not quite that simple.

ill just repost my post from the closed thread because the discussion above me calls for it:

There’s a lot of arguing going on that basically recalls the same arguments during any unlock discussion war.

The video game’s internal rules are the way they are because the developers made them so. Nothing else. You can’t argue “the game was meant to be X”, because you don’t decide on that. Any change to the game is completely arbitrary and can never truly be argued to be bad or good from a pure reasoning standpoint. The rebuttal to these arguments will always be “but thats just your opinion/taste/etc”.

What we COULD say however is that most people made a conscious decision to play this specific game; TF2, and not some other game, because TF2′s internal rules and mechanics please them; its fun. Now, you can tweak those rules and mechanics slightly, which is fine, but once you start changing too much, the game essentially becomes a different game. Once you start throwing in these huge meta changes 7 years after the game’s release, people won’t be happy, because they never chose to play this “new” metagame that emerges from the new rules and mechanics, and they’re not even offered a choice to keep playing the “old” game they loved.

What is a fact though is that the most succesful competitive game environments have been those with an established meta. Not only chess, but any real life sport. This law also applies in esports, if you leave out those silly MOBAs. MOBAs are clearly the exception because the constant overthrowing of the meta is actually a part of the meta itself (metaception). Wether you like that or not is a matter of taste. I think it’s silly and a bad excuse to cover up boring core mechanics. Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but I think even the SC scene flourished the most when the meta had been stable for the longest amount of time (SC:BW).

tl;dr: People who don’t like the change have very valid sentiments, but aren’t bringing forth valid arguments. People who tell others to quit whining and adapt don’t understand the core issue that is causing their discontent.

tl;dr of the tl;dr: you’re all idiots, but the people who try to put up a rational argument for/against this change are the worst.

While I do believe that demoman now is more or less what he should’ve been like a long time ago, it’s around 7 years too late to start changing things this drastically. Everyone (even the pubbers) have accepted the fact that demoman is a strong class, and the game has been more or less been built around it.
If people don’t use demo unlocks, it’s not necessarily because a weapon is overpowered, but because the unlocks are situational.
Don’t fix what ain’t broken.

Just as a ps. I never mained demoman. I even hated stickies for their easiness, and always preferred pipes. I still think it’s the stupidest change in TF2 since I started playing this video game.

Quoted from xzr

[…]

So the demo is a defensive class. I reckon the scattergun damage should be ramped down a bit so that the scouts can concentrate on scouting a bit more.

The demo was fine for these 7 years, it already got a few nerfs (pipes got nerfed at the start by reducing clipsize and stopping them from detting on contact after the first bounce and stickies got range falloff later on).

Anyone who has played around the top tiers of the scene knows that demo trades the big damage output for a huge weakness in close combat (in which both soldiers and scouts excel in). This nerf weakens the demo even more up close and takes away the mid-range damage capability as well, only leaving the playstyle of backpedaling away and laying down traps on points and what not. Too bad running into traps is pretty 2009.

Sure some people might consider throwing the meta upside down completely fine, Permzilla and his highlander scrub admin buddies have been trying to make ETF2L a pub league since the HL clownfest started.

You guys think the demo slows the games down, I think it speeds them up. The burst damage creates openings for your scouts and soldiers to do their thing.

“Just hit your pipes then hurrdurr” – The pipelauncher while being a nifty little weapon, tends to require a fair bit more skill than rocket launchers and scatterguns to reach a reasonable damage output. Spam aside if you happen to hit those 4 consecutive pipes, you’ve just reached a measly 400 damage. Just take a moment and compare that to the 400-450 dmg of a rocket launcher clip (less with splash of course, but there’s no splash damage for pipes on contact to a surface), or the 600 something damage of a scattergun. And both of those classes have sidearms very suitable for medium/close range combat as well. So basically now you’re a soldier with a quite underpowered sidearm, and forced to hit direct hits with your main weapon, and for this fun you pay by giving out 25hp compared to the soldiers.

The question arises why would anyone run a demoman anymore, when a soldier becomes way more efficient in creating space and tanking damage.

Sure I can see why all the div5 soldiers like doks are all horny about this. They can finally just sit next to their medic for the whole match and rack up that top dmg, with no fear of anyone burst damaging them out of their overheals.

Agreed.