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The Short Circuit
Created 18th February 2014 @ 14:20
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in retrospect this is way too many words for a videogame discussion, think I’ll drop it now
“…using the SC to try to pull it off is a bad idea, because.. SC is overpowered.”
What do you mean by “overpowered”? Does the SC make the engy more powerful than heavy or demo? No
“I don’t think the proper approach to making all the classes balanced (which we both know will never happen) is giving one class that is supposedly “weaker” than, for example, the demoman, a weapon that.. makes him deny the demoman.”
Perfect balance is obviously impossible but do we agree that a better balance between the classes would be good? What do you think is wrong with this process?
“But.. even then, altogether, I don’t think that’s how TF2 was meant to be played.”
The argument that: “because TF2 was one thing at release, that should inform what is good now” seems very flawed to me.
Edit: Also look at this! People having a sensible, polite debate about relevant shit. Take that “petition” thread.
Edit2: Well… if you ignore the 6v6vHL crap earlier
Last edited by Ruskeydoo,
Quoted from Ruskeydoo
I agree with you and none of your points are mutually exclusive to a better class balance. In fact all of the things you’ve said are good would be improved with better class balance right?
Not really imo :/
The reason a med-pick is exciting, is because the medic is a more valuable class. And that’s okay, in my opinion.
Why would the soldier jump in for picks if each class is equally good? Why even bother risking a stab when you might aswell just pump out damage like all the other equally good classes?
Medic is the most important class while spy is one of the least, and yet you find 100x as many scrubs wanting to play spy.
It all comes down to what I’ve been saying all along, the different abilities and values each class has is what makes the game exciting and allows for creativity.
Quoted from Scissors
[…]
It all comes down to what I’ve been saying all along, the different abilities and values each class has is what makes the game exciting and allows for creativity.
Yet, removing the SC is removing one of the abilities of the engineer, and allows for less creativity. You will run wrangler with level 3s, and probably pistol with minis.
Lots of people are saying engineer is one of the weaker / less important classes, but at the same time denying the ability to change this because it would screw with the game meta.
And a personal request: please stop saying SC is overpowered. Explain what you mean. WHY is it overpowered? Is it the firing speed, is it the removing projectiles, is it the ammo cost?
And since you mention the engineers role, it’s to build things with the sole purpose of helping his teammates, and is largely useless on his own. Mini sentries changed this slightly, but the point still remains. Wielding the short circuit against a demo/soldier won’t mean instant win for engineer. It means some of their pipes/stickies/rockets won’t land. It’s a preventative measure, that can be combined with other things.
Quoted from foxy_dave
[…]
Yet, removing the SC is removing one of the abilities of the engineer, and allows for less creativity. You will run wrangler with level 3s, and probably pistol with minis.
Lots of people are saying engineer is one of the weaker / less important classes, but at the same time denying the ability to change this because it would screw with the game meta.
And a personal request: please stop saying SC is overpowered. Explain what you mean. WHY is it overpowered? Is it the firing speed, is it the removing projectiles, is it the ammo cost?
And since you mention the engineers role, it’s to build things with the sole purpose of helping his teammates, and is largely useless on his own. Mini sentries changed this slightly, but the point still remains. Wielding the short circuit against a demo/soldier won’t mean instant win for engineer. It means some of their pipes/stickies/rockets won’t land. It’s a preventative measure, that can be combined with other things.
Medic is also rather useless on his own.
Quoted from foxy_dave
[…]
Yet, removing the SC is removing one of the abilities of the engineer, and allows for less creativity. You will run wrangler with level 3s, and probably pistol with minis.
Lots of people are saying engineer is one of the weaker / less important classes, but at the same time denying the ability to change this because it would screw with the game meta.
And a personal request: please stop saying SC is overpowered. Explain what you mean. WHY is it overpowered? Is it the firing speed, is it the removing projectiles, is it the ammo cost?
As a engi, the thing that is still fucked up with the SC is the attack speed. And as long as it have current attack speed I don’t see it coming back. Saying this one more time, as it look like you haven’t seen the three dudes saying it :)
Quoted from foxy_dave
[…]
And a personal request: please stop saying SC is overpowered. Explain what you mean. WHY is it overpowered? Is it the firing speed, is it the removing projectiles, is it the ammo cost?
If you actually read the thread, you would notice that the firing speed and spammability is the thing people are whining about.
It was SUCH a great and awesome weapon before. I am still sad they ruined it, but at this point it’s just too broken for comp. (read the thread for examples)
it was a pretty slick unlock before the update which made it stupid.
the firing rate was only just faster than the firing rate of the rocket/grenade launcher and i think the metal costs were 18 if the shot removed a projectile and 36 if it didn’t.
not sure if this concept could ever become balanced enough to actually fit into competitive, but right now it’s just a dumb unlock.
i think the firing speed should get reverted to how it was before ‘the update’ and the cost-mechanics should be revised.
Quoted from Scissors
[…]
Not really imo :/
The reason a med-pick is exciting, is because the medic is a more valuable class. And that’s okay, in my opinion.
Why would the soldier jump in for picks if each class is equally good? Why even bother risking a stab when you might aswell just pump out damage like all the other equally good classes?
Medic is the most important class while spy is one of the least, and yet you find 100x as many scrubs wanting to play spy.
It all comes down to what I’ve been saying all along, the different abilities and values each class has is what makes the game exciting and allows for creativity.
Increasing the use of classes such as Engy and Spy will not change the mechanics of the Medic or the value of a Medic pick. The way you have to think about medic is that his short term value to the team is variable depending on how much uber he has. A medic with no uber has less value than a medic with full uber, right?
Increasing the relevance of the more irrelevant classes does not mess with the uber mechanic we love.
Quoted from Ruskeydoo
[…]
Increasing the use of classes such as Engy and Spy will not change the mechanics of the Medic or the value of a Medic pick. The way you have to think about medic is that his short term value to the team is variable depending on how much uber he has. A medic with no uber has less value than a medic with full uber, right?
Increasing the relevance of the more irrelevant classes does not mess with the uber mechanic we love.
damnit Ruskey.. stop that.. I’m reading your posts in my head, in your voice :D
I prefer wrangler
Last edited by Bubl,
Quoted from foxy_dave
I may well be missing things, and am happy to be corrected if that's the case. Sure, it's an annoying weapon to play against. But then, it's annoying for me to die whenever I touch the cart as there's no defence to the sticky trap / soldier spam / pipe spam coming my way.
W A S D
Why it is banned?
Because its broken.
Mini = scout shutdown
solly and demo cant do anything to direction where engineer with SC is at, includes trying to destroy the mini, thats 3 classes shut down from certain are with basicaly 1 tool that requiers pressing a 1 button and lookin generaly right direction.
Yes spy can sap sentry or sniper shoot it but still its 2-4 classses traded to 1, no other class has such power even heavy alone without medic is easily 1for1 trade.
Thats why its banned.
Last edited by Limp.,
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