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what do opponents asking for screenshots have to do with #tf2.wars and why is it bad?

As smzi said , play vs better players , get wrecked , learn from that – repeat. If you are proper div5 team , you should consider playing with some div4 teams in order to progress quickly and more efficiently. Its really stupid to have DIV5 ONLY GROUP and 11 newbie mixes groups along. And there is always tf2pickup. You can even play with some prem players and learn alot from them.

P.S Get that group deleted and start playing pickup if u want to progress. Unless you want to be div5forever?

The sad truth is that div5 isn’t about improving as a team, or that’s at least not the efficient way of doing it. In 99 percent of the cases it’s about individual improvement, since most teams kick bad players and good players just hop a division on their own. So being super keen about who you pcw is most likely a waste of time; you should just be sitting in DM.

Quoted from fraac

There’s no need to be defensive about a new smart guy doing things his own way. It’s just a boring monkey reaction. Get over it. I know what I’m doing.

wow you are really cool

There’s no need to be defensive about a new smart guy doing things his own way. It’s just a boring monkey reaction. Get over it. I know what I’m doing.

wow you are really cool

Can I stop you two right there? If the div 5 group works out, fine. Kudos for testing a new system. If it doesn’t, someone will notice it eventually and only time will be lost. There’s no point in arguing; neither of you is going to sway the other.

It’s probably not the worst idea, to have all these div 5 leaders in one place.

~4 years ago, or whenever back in the days of ~season 2ish we used to just add other team leaders. Scroll down some tables (etf2l, wireplay) find people with results against people we’ve played, gauge if it’s worth it and organise it for a time. That has completely faded out so this just seems like a way to follow something similar to that.

That said, there’s still going to be a range of skill etc. and it might not end up any better than tf.wars but at least you can play some actual teams this way. It’s a bugger trying to gauge things as a new team, roster changes, deciding to ask for a division promotion etc. when you can’t even play any teams that would be a marker. You’ll need to whack out some div 4 teams at some point as well but i’m sure that will become evident when the group isn’t even helping you find games that don’t end in rolls.

Can’t see it being that sustainable, but probably will be useful for pre-season so good luck.

Quoted from konr

If you get wrecked by “div 4 teams” and rape “low div 5 teams” maybe you need to…

…find better games? I’m amazed that anyone believes this isn’t the obvious answer. Except you don’t actually believe it, it’s just the usual adolescent hostility to anything new that’s rife on this forum. I find that attitude boring, I can ignore it, but I know it puts off a lot of people from getting involved here.

Quoted from accless

[…]

[…]

Can I stop you two right there? If the div 5 group works out, fine. Kudos for testing a new system. If it doesn’t, someone will notice it eventually and only time will be lost. There’s no point in arguing; neither of you is going to sway the other.

Arguing isn’t about convincing the other that they are wrong, it is about getting feedback from the other part. My previous comment was a sarcastic remark since he didn’t adress any of the issues that were presented in the thread, just a silly rebuttal on that he apparently knows what he is doing, which isn’t a proper response at all.

The following is going to be very frank, so don’t read this if you are easily offended.

I would describe fraac as a naïve idealist, trying to come up with solutions to non-existant problems. Apparently his experience as a division 5 team-leader it is very to arrange a “good” game. To solve this problem, he feels that he needs to exclude a certain skill level from #tf.wars, so that he can practise against teams of equal skill level.

This poses a number of problems, which were taken up by smzi. He didn’t adress those issues, and when people keep bringing them up he just replies with a passive-aggressive remark instead of actually being constructive and coming up with counter-arguments.

It is highly annoying that people that have severe attitude problems (arrogance, pride, etc.) and are unable to take criticism start up new projects that they become leaders of. This is an example, tf2pickup.net is another. And the main problem isn’t that they are bad leaders, but they take a position of power within the community. Right now, fraac has the power to decide which teams are worthy of being in his group, and since he lacks the ability to take and respond to honest criticism, he is more likely to abuse this position of power.

So what have we accomplished by this group. Now the community has been split needlessly, division 6 teams can’t test out new water. Division 5 teams only play with themselves and might not take the step towards searching division 4 games. And we have a bad leader for this group.

Yes, I am being a bit over-dramatic, but it’s the principle of this that makes me very annoyed, that a bad project leader starts up a new project to solve a problem that could’ve been avoided by simply searching a bit higher div on IRC or contacting team leaders personally. The project itself is fundamentally flawed since the leader can’t take criticism into account and this is doomed to fail. The consequences are bad for the community but at least the project leader can take pride in leading a group where shit teams can play with themselves and never improve.