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Highlander Season 12 Preseason Cup: Feedback
Created 13th March 2017 @ 00:15
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In my opinion, a whitelist should be used to ban unlocks that are meta defining in a negative way. (or unlocks with glitches but that much is pretty much accepted)
I’ll use the unlocks that are easiest to understand to demonstrate this.
The Kritzkrieg is an unlock that adds variety to the way that teams play, and if used correctly can make for some interesting and unique gameplay. This weapon should be allowed.
The Hitman’s Heatmaker is an unlock that doesn’t really do anything, and would probably only be run as a joke, not impacting the meta at all. This unlock should be allowed.
The Darwin’s Danger Shield is an unlock that forces both snipers to run it and slows down the game unnecessarily. This unlock should be banned.
In my opinion, every unlock should be looked at like this. Now, in this scenario the Dead Ringer is interesting as it does add variety to the way Spies play, similar to the kritzkrieg. However this unlock allows Spies to take fights vs most classes with 0 risk and forces enemy teams to play in very specific ways to counter it (Scout with mad milk etc).
So, The Dead Ringer restricts the meta to a boring one that’s not fun for most to play, even though it gives the Spy more options. Hence why I think it should be banned.
Last edited by scrambled,
vigil seems fun when you get used to it a bit, there’s definitely some improvements needed though. Spawntimes are a major issue. Cliffs are too hard to identify for the first few times, at least for me. I also jumped into the pit on last because I didn’t know it was there in our first game on the map. New maps are fun though because you can see the map meta developing as people think about it and how to improve their holds.
coalplant is definitely not a favorite of mine but it’s a decent map. Just needs its spawn fixed otherwise it’s already not fun when the round starts. Not a good thing for a map in my opinion
unlocks barely matter at all, I don’t know why DR is even discussed, there are enough players that use different options. Last preseason when we had a cup or something with DR banned it actually felt like a lot of DR spies have a lot more impact on the game when using IW and that they are just using DR because it’s their comfort zone. Certainly not an unlock that should even be considered to be banned.
RB is a similar story, what actually makes the sniper harder to kill for spies is the playstyle around the combo, the RB barely aids that playstyle. If the sniper didn’t wear the RB and play around the combo, he’d still survive just as much. In fact, if he didn’t wear the razorback, played around the combo and gets stabbed, then the spy is probably choosing the wrong target. He could be picking a demo or medic instead which still has more impact on the game.
SC makes projectile classes sad but it also gives the other team a free engi pick when pushing. One hitscan class with the demo and the engi is just as useless as before.
Airstrike I didn’t see used much, feels a lot like beggar’s to me. If a player perfected it, he could be very annoying for medics. But beggar’s had a lot of discussion back when hartz was using it but it faded into irrelevance because nobody uses it. Airstrike is the same and I don’t see any problem unbanning it.
Red tape seems like an upgrade to the sapper to me. Does the same thing when the engi is alive (or even more?) and it kills buildings just like the sapper if the engi is dead.
Diamondback I didn’t see used much so based on that it should be unbanned but it still rewards spies for doing what they’re supposed to do anyway so that seems kind of dumb to me.
Also can we please stop with the “open whitelist so new players have incentive to play” argument? There’s a lot of other things that keeps pubbers from playing comp, whitelist is not that much of an issue. I certainly didn’t care that I couldn’t even use gunboats when I started 6s. Who goes “argh I can’t use my favorite weapon the airstrike in this competitive gamemode I’m not gonna play” when they are already considering getting into comp? It might have been an issue 4 years ago but it isn’t now.
Please unban the Aistrike for the next season so I can enjoy Scyper’s laugh when he plays it. x]
Anyways, only got some feedback on the cup format:
While I enjoyed playing that many games in a row (only missed out on the finals), it was exhausting and getting really late for a few people.
First day wasn’t really a big deal since it was only 2 matches (3 maps in total), but especially day 2 was really long, we had our group match on vigil and then went into the first knockout stage where we played all 3 maps (vigil, badwater and gully with a golden cap). Not sure how this would be fixed (or if it even needs to be).
Quoted from Kuferl
Please unban the Aistrike for the next season so I can enjoy Scyper’s laugh when he plays it. x]
I remember a moment on Vigil where he jumped near the spawn door at the start of the round, stayed in mid-air with the parachute and got two kills when the gates opened and he could not stop laughing. If only we had told him Day 1 that he could use it :C
Also, about the Razorback, it definitely made a difference when it got banned in UGC with some Spies killing Snipers a ridiculous amount of times in total (20+ sometimes). It honestly feels a bit silly that I can mindlessly trade for a Sniper over and over if he’s not standing in the middle of his entire team. However, I felt that it didn’t really make much of a difference if the Sniper is being covered by the combo properly. Last point on Vigil for example, it’s pretty hard for a Spy to get a pick on the Sniper due to how enclosed the last point is, but I don’t think the issue lies with the Razorback, more so that he’s able to sit around his entire combo and a sentry with a full buff. Banning Razorback will just encourage Snipers to play even more around their combo because it’ll become easier for Spies to punish them if they are not.
I just think that the airstrike has potential to make a medic drop/force almost trivial in certain circumstances, in a similar way to what the beggar’s bazooka did (although I didn’t have a problem with the bazooka) but not nearly as bad to use in direct combat. The fact you spawn with a clip of 4 and can unload all of those in a jump if needed makes the 15% damage penalty irrelevant in bombs and it’s still okay damage in fights, I think. I suppose a heavy should be good against parachute shenanigans, but don’t ignore this weapon just because not that many people used it apparently.
About the razorback, I just think sniper needs a nerf and banning it is not ideal, but still the best way we have of doing it. I think it’s good if a sniper has to think about spy time and not simply scope in and forget – it makes him less able to control a sightline for extended periods of time and it benefits snipers with a good spy sense over those who will get stabbed over and over.
As far as the dead ringer, it tilts me sometimes when a spy is able to outrun me to safety regardless of me tracking him correctly. But pyro is a shit class so at the end of the day it’s whatever… if he’s out of range he’s not my job any more. Thing is he usually becomes the scout and soldier’s job, and those classes are already under big pressure to hold the flank, so a DR gunspy can actually rip the flank wide open even without hitting big headshots, just by being there. But if I’m being rational, this probably doesn’t warrant a ban. For me this kind of spy is a bad flank test. If your flank is bad, he will destroy you. If your flank is good, he will struggle.
Quoted from scrambled
In my opinion, a whitelist should be used to ban unlocks that are meta defining in a negative way. (or unlocks with glitches but that much is pretty much accepted)
Not everybody agrees with you on what “meta defining in a negative way” is because it is entirely subjective. For example you think the DR should be banned and I do not.
The only way to solve this is to either unban everything, that way everybody is in the same boat of having to play against weapons they don’t like even if they dislike different weapons. Or we have some way of saying one opinion is better/more valid than another and there will be a lot of salt however you choose. Do we balance around the opinions of everyone in the league, meaning open players who outnumber the rest of us will decide, maybe we balance around the opinions of people active on the forums, maybe only prem players, maybe only the most succesful players? It’s hard to see why one is objectively better than another other than maybe we just get Thalash or Steve (the two objectively most succesful HL players ever dep on how you rank it) to decide for us.
The game was not made with competitive intent in mind and its devs have no idea what in the fuck they are doing. Competitive format is a community invention and refined to be most efficient in the 6v6 format under the many regulations devised. Highlander as a whole is a gimmick by playing on the inclusivity of all classes with the intent to be truer to the game’s feel and should therefore go that extra mile to allow all unlocks because fuck it, that’s the entire philosophy of the gamemode. Not your fault some unlocks are trash but at least be consistent.
Quoted from EmilioEstevez
Do we balance around the opinions of everyone in the league, meaning open players who outnumber the rest of us will decide
If 95% of people want a weapon banned it should probably be banned regardless of if prem does not think so, if it is 55% (ban) – 45% (unban) with most of prem saying its fine then unban it. UGC had a better system for this where they did weapon polls ordered responses by the divisions played and made decisions based on that.
For example in UGC all the way up to gold the vote was to allow the machina, in plat the vote was to ban it, in the end it was banned because of massive outcry from the top players, due to how the machina effected the meta game. A similar system could work here where players opinions are separated by division and this is used to assist in whitelist changes, its far from perfect but at least it will give more players a chance to voice their opinion which I can only see as a good thing.
Quoted from EmilioEstevez
maybe we just get Thalash or Steve (the two objectively most succesful HL players ever dep on how you rank it) to decide for us.
Getting the opinions of just 1 or 2 people, especially when they play on the same team, is an awful idea which just promotes bias.
Quoted from Fuxx
go that extra mile to allow all unlocks
I’m not sure I’ve heard an idea that would kill HL quicker.
Last edited by Included_Middle,
Quoted from Included_Middle
If 95% of people want a weapon banned it should probably be banned regardless of if prem does not think so, if it is 55% (ban) – 45% (unban) with most of prem saying its fine then unban it. UGC had a better system for this where they did weapon polls ordered responses by the divisions played and made decisions based on that.
That seems entirely arbitrary. Why is it OK for Prem to overrule the rest of the playerbase in a 55 to 45 vote but not in a 60 to 40, or a 70 to 30? Why have you drawn the line there when you have clearly accepted that some peoples opinions are better than others. Why not just ask Prem in the first place?
Quoted from Included_Middle
Getting the opinions of just 1 or 2 people, especially when they play on the same team, is an awful idea which just promotes bias.
In any way you can objectively measure it they are the best 2 HL players, their understanding of the game has allowed them to beat everyone else. Surely these are the players best placed to decide what weapons are overpowered or not?
I’m not actually saying I want Steve or Thalash to decide everything, but if we’ve accepted that higher skilled players should be able to overrule lower skilled players when they disagree why not just go ask the highest skilled player available and let that person decide?
Quoted from EmilioEstevez
words
You’re trying to look at something that can’t be looked at objectively from an objective standpoint, and you’re using the appeal to authority fallacy to argue your case.
Why should the league whitelist only be balanced for the highest skilled players anyway? Surely the whitelist should be designed to work at every level the league has going for it.
If you want to refute my point, explain to me how the dead ringer enhances the gameplay for classes that aren’t spy.
Last edited by scrambled,
Quoted from MARS^
SC makes projectile classes sad but it also gives the other team a free engi pick when pushing. One hitscan class with the demo and the engi is just as useless as before.
If engie is stupid enough to put himself in a 1v2 against scout & demo he should die regardless of whether SC is equipped or not, unless his enemies are potatoes. So that argument is invalid.
Quoted from EmilioEstevez
That seems entirely arbitrary. Why is it OK for Prem to overrule the rest of the playerbase in a 55 to 45 vote but not in a 60 to 40, or a 70 to 30? Why have you drawn the line there when you have clearly accepted that some peoples opinions are better than others. Why not just ask Prem in the first place?
It’s all about gathering more information than we currently have, as for the numbers they were just a quick example and not meant to be taken as hard limits. All i meant by this is if 95% of the league hate a weapon and want it banned it should be banned for the enjoyment of the vast majority if the split is closer then it becomes a grey area where things like what the opinion of the prem players are and how that distrbutes down the leagues becomes more important.
Quoted from EmilioEstevez
In any way you can objectively measure it they are the best 2 HL players, their understanding of the game has allowed them to beat everyone else. Surely these are the players best placed to decide what weapons are overpowered or not?
I didn’t want to have to mention b4nny really, but he is the most successful 6s player and an has incredibly differing opinion to the vast majority of other 6s players and seems to barely know about a lot of the mechanics of some classes (see his opinions on weapon balancing for pyro) yet from an objective viewpoint he should be the person we all listen too, this is essential why appealing to authority is silly, we should listen to the arguments they say and value them on their merit not how many lans/titles/stevepander’s of the season they have won.
Quoted from EmilioEstevez
I’m not actually saying I want Steve or Thalash to decide everything, but if we’ve accepted that higher skilled players should be able to overrule lower skilled players when they disagree why not just go ask the highest skilled player available and let that person decide?
Getting the opinion of only a small number of players and weighing them very highly creates a large amount of bias anyway that you do it.
Quoted from Included_Middle
I’m not sure I’ve heard an idea that would kill HL quicker.
You say that like it’s a bad thing.
No but really if your entire gamemode philosophy is to represent all aspects of the game then why do you persist on selectively refuse to represent elements of it? Why open up the entire can of worms that is unlock discussion when the solution is obvious? Your perception of what is overpowered and underpowered is tainted by a predetermined popular idea of how the game ought to be played and of stark adherence to an already laid out metagame. There are plenty of unlocks infinitely more useful than their stock counterparts but you do not bat an eye at seeing them allowed because that’s just the game you got introduced to.
Cut the bullshit, HL format is meant to expose the game as it is with classlimits being the one thing standing in the way of it being a full on organized pub.
Quoted from Included_Middle
[…]
I didn’t want to have to mention b4nny really, but he is the most successful 6s player and an has incredibly differing opinion to the vast majority of other 6s players and seems to barely know about a lot of the mechanics of some classes (see his opinions on weapon balancing for pyro) yet from an objective viewpoint he should be the person we all listen too, this is essential why appealing to authority is silly, we should listen to the arguments they say and value them on their merit not how many lans/titles/stevepander’s of the season they have won.
The point I was making is that you were suggesting that we give prem players a higher weighting in any vote earlier. Why stop at the arbitrary weighting you have given to prem players when you have clearly accepted the opnions of the best players are worth more, why not just go ask the best player directly.
I think Fuxx has the right idea. Unban everything that isn’t bugged.
Quoted from EmilioEstevez
[…]
The point I was making is that you were suggesting that we give prem players a higher weighting in any vote earlier. Why stop at the arbitrary weighting you have given to prem players when you have clearly accepted the opnions of the best players are worth more, why not just go ask the best player directly.
I think Fuxx has the right idea. Unban everything that isn’t bugged.
So if everyone in the league except strong opinions and chess want a weapon banned it should be allowed? Good luck getting people to play in a league with the reserve shooter unbanned.
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