Forum
Improving certain rules and admin work
Created 17th April 2015 @ 07:48
Like I was told I should hit in this topic so I will be as straight as possible about the things that I believe should be improved.
Forum rules:
F.6 – Do not bring up conflicts (e.g. team arguments, or disagreements with the admins) on the forum. Such threads will be deleted.
I really think this rule should be removed because in my opinion it shows admins to work more in the hidden, I can understand this rule for AC admins, but for regular league admins? I really can point few things that happened in the past and going into public with some cases, showing people point of view of admins should help. The rule was created because of flaming on admins, we have rule about flaming, and I think removing threads is a little overkill in some situations.
3.4 A delay of 15 minutes is allowed
A delay of 15 minutes for showing up for a match is allowed. If a team fails to have a complete team ready on the server 15 minutes after the match was supposed to start, the other team may claim a Default Win.
This has been abused in the past, everyone can remember 8v9 deafult win, if it comes to that point really you should adjust, if the enemy team doesn’t want to ready up after 15 minutes, they should contact an admin on IRC and admin should force the team to ready up, it would take a minute or two but it would start the game 17 minutes late not 15. But I think ETF2L should really encourage teams to play the game.
3.7 Only authorized spectators allowed
Only spectators authorized by the league, or for the use of Source TV, are allowed.
Here you need an information what teams should do if situation like that happens, I can see couple of ways it can be used in wrong way.
Teams may request a pause at any time during a match. Reasons for pausing can include:
– Player drop
– Server problems
– The match is unplayable due to network issues
I would add here solving disagreement on something with admins, it might be server issues, I would really like see different aproach to disagreements during match time. I was told that disputes should be made after a game, but what stops admins about saying: “You played whole match so what’s the problem” There can be a disagreement made during the game and it would save a lot of time of people if done at the time. Also I think that avaible admins during officials should be ready to join server to solve disagreement with both teams, and game would be paused during the moment.
One mercenary is allowed by default and up to 3 mercenaries are allowed if the opposing team agrees. In order for your merc to be allowed by default, he cannot be more experienced than your team overall. Experience in other leagues is included. Opponents can allow exceptions. To use more than one merc, you will need specific approval from the opponent for each merc.
This statement is about other modes like 6v6 and higlander on etf2l or rather you mean UGC? If UGC what ugc experience is more than Mid in etf2l and what isn’t? I don’t believe that judging merc ability by league like UGC would be acurate, and on UGC you can really check if someone actually played game on that level or just was a rosterrider.
All other hats and misc items are allowed, including Pyrovision-granting items. If an opponent uses a banned hat during your match, you are to pause the match and ask for the player to remove it. If the opponent refuses to remove the hat, you have the right to stop the match and contact an admin with evidence to claim a default win.
Propably just a typo, but it’s minor thing.
2.2.2 All item reskins are allowed.
If the original weapon is allowed, reskins of that weapon are always allowed too. Pyrovision weapons with new abilities, such as taunts, are not considered reskins.
This kind of deny the upper statement about items with pyrovision are allowed.
Also ETF2L lacks in rules about matchfixing, which could become a thing because saloon.tf
Other thing I don’t understand is why the swiss system is firing from week 3 and not actual week 2.
And as I stated before I really think the admins should have a code, that would really shortened up admin request during games and just discuss things with other admins when the issues is not common or really misleading in the rules.
One thing I would forgot, spamming binds during pause it’s really painful if you need to unpause the game it’s constant spam. Also their is lack of explenation about unpausing and how should it procede.
Cheers
Hajdzik
Last edited by Hajdzik,
F.7 – Feedback discussions (e.g. on unlocks and maps) are to be carried on constructively and politely. Feedback threads will be strictly moderated to ensure the discussion remains healthy.
Good job 6v6 pros.
Last edited by Hajdzik,
I really think this rule should be removed because in my opinion it shows admins to work more in the hidden, I can understand this rule for AC admins, but for regular league admins? I really can point few things that happened in the past and going into public with some cases, showing people point of view of admins should help. The rule was created because of flaming on admins, we have rule about flaming, and I think removing threads is a little overkill in some situations.
Bringing up conflicts on the forum isn’t allowed and shouldn’t be allowed. The simple fact is that both sides can’t be fairly represented and it may jeapordise the ongoing investigation. Relay the facts to the admin team and they will come with a proper solution.
This has been abused in the past, everyone can remember 8v9 deafult win, if it comes to that point really you should adjust, if the enemy team doesn’t want to ready up after 15 minutes, they should contact an admin on IRC and admin should force the team to ready up, it would take a minute or two but it would start the game 17 minutes late not 15. But I think ETF2L should really encourage teams to play the game.
We encourage teams to play by putting sanctions on not showing or readying up on time.
Having admins join the server and changing the ready up status of a team isn’t going to improve the quality of the league by adding in extra liabilities.
Here you need an information what teams should do if situation like that happens, I can see couple of ways it can be used in wrong way.
Not sure what you mean by this? Please elaborate. You can’t have anyone else joining the server than the teams (+mercs) playing.
I would add here solving disagreement on something with admins, it might be server issues, I would really like see different aproach to disagreements during match time. I was told that disputes should be made after a game, but what stops admins about saying: “You played whole match so what’s the problem” There can be a disagreement made during the game and it would save a lot of time of people if done at the time. Also I think that avaible admins during officials should be ready to join server to solve disagreement with both teams, and game would be paused during the moment.
Talking to an admin does and should not require you to pause. Disputes can be settled after the match.
We sometimes do join, but if you look at how the admin team investigates match complaints, you can see how that’s not the norm.
This statement is about other modes like 6v6 and higlander on etf2l or rather you mean UGC? If UGC what ugc experience is more than Mid in etf2l and what isn’t? I don’t believe that judging merc ability by league like UGC would be acurate, and on UGC you can really check if someone actually played game on that level or just was a rosterrider.
No, the rule is in place to gauge the players’ skill level (and weed out low effort alt accounts)
Propably just a typo, but it’s minor thing.
Not a typo, we make a distinction between regular reskins and items that have a definite change. Currently the constraints overlap but this rule makes sure game changing items don’t get automatically accepted.
Also ETF2L lacks in rules about matchfixing, which could become a thing because saloon.tf
Match fixing rules are being clarified with s21 announcement. faking results or match fixing is already forbidden but we’ll make an addendum on it.
Other thing I don’t understand is why the swiss system is firing from week 3 and not actual week 2.
What?
And as I stated before I really think the admins should have a code, that would really shortened up admin request during games and just discuss things with other admins when the issues is not common or really misleading in the rules.
What makes you think we don’t have policies and guidelines?
One thing I would forgot, spamming binds during pause it’s really painful if you need to unpause the game it’s constant spam. Also their is lack of explenation about unpausing and how should it procede.
Check the rules, both issues are covered by our ruleset
1. Conflicts or disagreements with admins can be over interpretated like my yesterday topic, thing like unreasonable bans happened in the past, also decisions being made wrong and not straightened. Consrutive post and not abusive even about disagreement, mine was more about rules not disagreements so it shouldn’t aply or it was really not good decision.
2. With playing over Internet many issues are possible, it’s not always teams fault that match is late and on other esports matches are delayed by even more than 15 minutes. I really feel like it should be considered, to make it more clear, so phrase “ready up or deafult win” wont be misjudged as a joke. It more comes to the fair aproach of the team. But also if before the game some game related issue, servers lagging etc. or team dispute should be able to delay game by couple of minutes.
3. I mean what should both teams do if someone who wasn’t supposed to be on server join to the server – that actually happened to me, some random guy just connected to server. What teams should do what if that person is somehow connected to enemy team. How teams should behave if person is just random.
4. Pauses during disagreements with rival team? Why it shoudn’t be done? I cam to conclusion yesterday that really admins can deny replying the game even if I had a point yesterday if I made an complain after the game. Kkaltuu do you remember match on gullywash with Kill Switch, server went down, don’t remember who they played agains, and there was dispute during the game either to give up round to team or not and it was done during the match. That was piece of good admin work in my oponion and every dispute should be resolved similar way. Also do you really think it’s worse option to open a dispute during pause on the beginning of the game, and restarting the round when nothing really happend, that restarting the game after one round or whole game? You just make it easy to execute for you and not fair for players.
5. “To compensate, teams in the top 50% are given some invisible points from which the fixtures are generated from for the first 2 weeks.”
Like why we had to play two teams from top 50% when we were an open team in mid obviously, team doing bad in week should play similar team in week 2. Would really be more fair. I asked about it before and it really doesn’t make sense.
6.
What makes you think we don’t have policies and guidelines?
Because every time I come to IRC to discuss something admins need to talk to other admins even in simple cases.
7. Another idea come to my mind, you know how sometimes after readying up someone of your team loses connection you feel the pain? What about making an exception and teams could ask for one restart during the game, like a deafult won no more than 20 seconds in the game or in setup time.
8. My bad with binds but with unpausing, it just said that enemy team should warn about unpause, but it’s really not said how that warn should look, in my opinion this should have more official aproach. Because now teams can just say “unpause in 5” and unpause when the other team isn’t even ready, if the 5 minutes go by it should be stated 5 minutes gone, and give like 15 seconds to unpause rather than doing it in blink of an eye.
Last edited by Hajdzik,
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51O%2BTTW3JcL.jpg
Last edited by Russian Guyovich,
Quoted from Russian Guyovich
Nice story,ive read that book. Was 3/5,would recommend to anyone who takes long seats in the toilet
all of these issues can be dealt with by using common sense pls dont overcomplicate the rulesystem
1. Conflicts or disagreements with admins can be over interpretated like my yesterday topic, thing like unreasonable bans happened in the past, also decisions being made wrong and not straightened. Consrutive post and not abusive even about disagreement, mine was more about rules not disagreements so it shouldn’t aply or it was really not good decision.
The public doesn’t have a single say when it comes to a match conflict verdict.
As such there is no benefit in making these cases public in the first place.
ETF2L isn’t a democracy, you can disagree with admins as a way of expressing your personal opinion but it won’t change the outcome of our decision.
The only thing such a thread will do is give people a platform to flame, that’s not in our interest.
2. With playing over Internet many issues are possible, it’s not always teams fault that match is late and on other esports matches are delayed by even more than 15 minutes. […] But also if before the game some game related issue, servers lagging etc. or team dispute should be able to delay game by couple of minutes.
Having issues with your internet connection is a problem on your side, not ours.
We are neither required nor willing to cater to this kind of problem, if your internet is “bad” then you shouldn’t be playing an internet based game competitively.
About the servers lagging: We have a rule for that,too:
5.1 Be reasonable regarding servers
Both teams can agree on the server which both maps are played on, or agree to play one map on each clan’s server. If you can’t agree to play either way then the game must be played on an ETF2L league server (please contact an admin to arrange this).
Make sure the server is adequate before you start – complaints cannot be made after the match.
Before you start as in make sure that the server is fine BEFORE the scheduled match time.
If you miss the opportunity to do that before the match then once again it’s a problem on your side, not ours.
You’re not meant to be experimenting with servers during the match, match time is for playing and playing only.
3. I mean what should both teams do if someone who wasn’t supposed to be on server join to the server – that actually happened to me, some random guy just connected to server. What teams should do what if that person is somehow connected to enemy team. How teams should behave if person is just random.
The answer is simple: The team who owns/reserved the server should kick/ban the player who’s not meant to be there. If they don’t then they will face a punishment.
I don’t know why this requires a modification of our rule, all you need is common sense.
4. Pauses during disagreements with rival team? Why it shoudn’t be done? I cam to conclusion yesterday that really admins can deny replying the game even if I had a point yesterday if I made an complain after the game. Kkaltuu do you remember match on gullywash with Kill Switch, server went down, don’t remember who they played agains, and there was dispute during the game either to give up round to team or not and it was done during the match. That was piece of good admin work in my oponion and every dispute should be resolved similar way. Also do you really think it’s worse option to open a dispute during pause on the beginning of the game, and restarting the round when nothing really happend, that restarting the game after one round or whole game? You just make it easy to execute for you and not fair for players.
The case you mentioned was an exception. We don’t have enough league admins to have them join every single official every time there’s a match complaint, not to mention that not every admin is online and available all day every day.
Plus some cases aren’t always clear and require a review by multiple admins over a period of time => impossible to resolve them immediately.
Of course we make it easy to execute for us, after all we’re the ones who have to deal with a high number of match complaints every season.
Verdicts don’t have to be fair (especially since most peoples definition of “fair” is incredibly subjective) they simply have to adhere to the rules.
If you don’t agree with the match-rules then don’t compete in this league.
5. “To compensate, teams in the top 50% are given some invisible points from which the fixtures are generated from for the first 2 weeks.”
Like why we had to play two teams from top 50% when we were an open team in mid obviously, team doing bad in week should play similar team in week 2. Would really be more fair. I asked about it before and it really doesn’t make sense.
You clearly don’t understand the swiss system.
The first 2 week matches aren’t necessarily balanced, arranging that is an impossible task.
To make it fairer we pre-seed top teams with invisible points at the start of the season.
These invisible points are meant to lose any relevance from Week 3 onwards since teams will have balanced fixtures by then
I recommend you read this wikipedia article to learn more about the system:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss-system_tournament
6.
What makes you think we don’t have policies and guidelines?
Because every time I come to IRC to discuss something admins need to talk to other admins even in simple cases.
You have contacted us a total of 3 times, 2 times of which you presented the same case and 1 time to argue/discuss the verdict for that case with sonny.
Based off of that, how are you able to make general assumptions again?
You clearly don’t know what you’re talking about.
7. Another idea come to my mind, you know how sometimes after readying up someone of your team loses connection you feel the pain? What about making an exception and teams could ask for one restart during the game, like a deafult won no more than 20 seconds in the game or in setup time.
Losing connection => Your personal problem. Same answer as for 2.
8. My bad with binds but with unpausing, it just said that enemy team should warn about unpause, but it’s really not said how that warn should look, in my opinion this should have more official aproach. Because now teams can just say “unpause in 5″ and unpause when the other team isn’t even ready, if the 5 minutes go by it should be stated 5 minutes gone, and give like 15 seconds to unpause rather than doing it in blink of an eye.
Team A pausing means that Team A is spending their pause resource to gain 5 minutes of extra time. With these 5 minutes they can do whatever they want.
They can end it prematurely whenever they want as long as they give a warning in chat.
If Team B is not ready by the time that Team A unpauses then that’s a problem on their side.
If they need more time to get ready then they will have to use their own pause resource, not the one of their opponents.
OK I will just answer some of your points.
1. Match conflicts are not allowed to be discussed in public for good reasons. It has the potential to create unnecessary drama and there are no public votes over the outcome of disputes anyway so why would everyone need to know all details? Back when I was admin, the result of a match complaint was explained in a post on the match page after the investigation was finished – and that is all you need. I don’t think that has changed.
2. I agree that the 15 minute delay is arbitrary. But where would you draw the line? 30 minutes? 40 minutes? 2 hours? No limit at all? If neither team is a total jerk, you’ll manage to either start on time or delay the match a bit longer by explaining your issue and asking nicely to run a little over the scheduled time. If the other team forces you to start on time, you can usually find that out ahead of time but communicating any issues you face. If everything else fails, you can start the match and pause right away (“pause please, we are missing a player”) for another 5 minutes.
… although my last point should probably not be allowed ;)
3. What do you do if a player joins your server who is not supposed to be there. Here’s an idea: Kick him.
ETF2L has banned players for joining a server during a match server to troll in the past, by the way.
4. Match disputes should be solved after a match. If the violation was severe, the other team will usually get a default loss. If it was less severe, they might get a warning or a round will be decided in the other team’s favour (we did that usually if a team violated the class limit and that class might potentially have made an impact on the outcome of that round, back in my days).
5. Not sure what you mean by that… But I also do not know anything about the skill of the teams you talk about. Here’s why the first two swiss rounds are manually balanced:
If the best team and the 2nd best team face in the first round and there was no manual balancing, the 2nd best team could face the worst team in round 2. The balancing of the swiss system only kicks in after a few matches and gets more accurate the more matches are played. To ensure a better match quality thoughout the whole season, some teams are being given invisible points for the first two rounds.
7. You CAN ask the other team for a restart, if a player drops 20 seconds into the match. What is stopping you? There is just no rule enforcing a restart if a player drops until an arbitrary deadline (potential for abuse. My demo failed the rollout? I better pull out my internet cable to time out and force a restart!).
8. I agree that the unpause process could be made clearer (e.g. “Before unpausing, you must ask your opponent if they are ready. Only if they are ready, you may unpause the game.”) – although I do believe it is common courtesy to not unpause when your opponent is not ready yet.
Quoted from ducky
[…]
Team A pausing means that Team A is spending their pause resource to gain 5 minutes of extra time. With these 5 minutes they can do whatever they want.
They can end it prematurely whenever they want as long as they give a warning in chat.If Team B is not ready by the time that Team A unpauses then that’s a problem on their side.
If they need more time to get ready then they will have to use their own pause resource, not the one of their opponents.
I disagree with this argumentation. You should not unpause if your opponent is not ready (if he does not take the piss) and maybe that should be integrated in the rules somehow (although it is A) common courtesy not to unpause when your opponent is not ready and B) common courtesy to not go and make a sandvich when your opponent pauses and could be ready any second [unless you are heavy weapons guy]).
Quoted from CanFo
[…]
I disagree with this argumentation. You should not unpause if your opponent is not ready (if he does not take the piss) and maybe that should be integrated in the rules somehow
This creates the problem of defining when someone is “taking the piss”.
Right now the ruling is worded in a way where it says that a ‘proper warning’ is required before you’re allowed to resume the game.
Whether the warning was proper or not time-wise depends on the circumstances of the pause in every specific match, not necessarily a fixed time period that you have to wait.
Now assuming that people adhere to the rules and pause the match “at the first appropriate time (e.g. not in the middle of a push)” after their opponents have requested it then the difference between waiting 5 seconds and 15 seconds should be minimal, if not non existing.
These cases of people not giving proper warnings before an unpause happen so rarely, if at all, that that it seems pointless to adjust a rule to it that works perfectly fine otherwise.
My goal here is really to promote fair play, there are small rules and talking with Sonny Black yesteday made me thought what would happen if I did yesterday everything like they should my team would be harmed, and I can imagine situations like that to happen in future for other teams.
Rule about not talking about admin decisions really is out of touch, because it can kill every discussion about your work even those which are being made not for flaming and insulting you. You as human beings can do mistakes and I really believe I have point in at least few cases here. I really see the rules you have allow you to make two different decisions in one case by simple sending people away. And I have been mislead on my first contact with admin. If I just made a complain after game it would have propably worse outcome than I did it before and really doubt something would be change it on our favour even when we would be right. We were somewhere right not enouch though. Giving some cases in a public can open a discussion if something should been changed or not. If things are done properly and I believe you can do better but it’s just my opinion. I was an admin myself multiple times, still doint it as my job so I really feel like you’re just defending each other and really Sonny Black made an impression yesterday that he’s forced to do it.
My topic yesterday didn’t bring “conflict with admin” it was bringing issue with minor disagrrement during matches and the way they are solved. I really believe it could be done on the fly. And deleting thread with sugestion just because there was me talking admin is really an overkill on it.
2. About readying up, I think it should be just small mention in the rules that if rival is 8 on server and match is late, you can say in official manner best on steam message that, 15 minutes left and you enforce the enemy to ready up the game. And the 9th can join later. Just to make it clear for lower tier teams, because writing: “omg rup or deafult” is taken as a joke to much times.
3. Ye I know it, but people sometimes are very slow in reaction and I played official for one minute with spectator on it, it was long ago but still, couldn’t you mention that under the rule that you have wroten there?
4. Ok imagine my situation from yesterday little different?
– We declared to enemy we want defend first, they say okay, but after ready up the sides switch. They refuse to switch it after that and just say keep playing or ignore. We pause the game on setup, declaring we want restart, they don’t agree. I contact admin right away, he says we have right to heavy fist fight if they want defend instead. Problem solved.
– Same situation. I make complain after game. But you played whole game what is the matter
For you to understand this situation my team was not supposed to be seeded in mid, our combo has maybe total 1500 hours in game, we were forced to drop 3 players, who started competetive because they were meant to playing this game not on this level. They were pretty new to game, after they got seeded in mid they didn’t really know they should adress that matter to admins. I was away and I was going to be sub. But when we couldn’t change it anymore we helped them a lot, pick up 2 more mid players and it’s somehow rolling, but we’re trying to use everything as our advantage, so picking defence said which was our stronger was better idea for starting match, because you propably know how morale works.
I really can’t imagine in situation on that even without us having right to restart or switch sides. If we would get bad score that we would anything more than minor warning for rival team, without affecting the game. And I really believe starting as defenders would be better option.
So dealing with minor disagreements would be time saving in case the game should be replayed, but that doesn’t happen at all, it doesn’t promote playing IMO, it promotes more fishing for deafult wins.
7. I can ask them but they can ignore that, I really have in mind some kind of fair play system, maybe outside etf2l maybe inside etf2l, where leaders could award good enemy leaders for fair play, and mark those leaders who are not known from being fair. I really see how can rule be abused in 5cp maps or sixes. But maybe even mentioning that restarting he game in first couple of seconds is a good thing you don’t have to make it a rule.
8. Thanks for at least agreeing on one thing.
ITT huge walls of text.
TL;DR Someone threw a hissy fit cause his team didn’t get to defend first and they’re too bad for mid tier
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