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Also:

Firstly theres not enough time for double elimination in most cases.

4 team single elim: SF (semi finals) + GF (grand finals) = 2 matches
4 team double elim: UB (upper bracket) SF + LB (lower bracket) SF + UB finals + LB finals + GF = 5 matches
(LB SF and UB finals can run alongside, so possibly 4 match days)

8 team single elim: QF (quarter finals) + SF * GF = 3 matches
8 team double elim: UB QF + LB QF + UB SF + LB SF + UB finals + LB finals + GF = 7 matches
(UB SF and LB QF; UB finals and LB SF can run alongside, so possible 5 match days)

Gonna spare me the 16 team system. Having possible 5 matches in 2 weeks and all the matches depend on each other. The likelihood of that working out is already close to 0. With 4 matches in 2 weeks it’s quite a stretch already.

Secondly, if you lose you werent the best team, the playoffs are pre-seeded based of your placement in S20 so the 1st placed team wont play the 2nd placed team for example. Arguments like they played maps that suited them, or their playstyle won them the game dont count. If they won because of whatever reason, they’ve simply been better than you and you are therefore rightfully out of the playoffs.

I agree that double elimination is probably better than single elimination, although the difference and especially the outcome wont be a whole lot different in the end. But the main reason why its not gonna happen is a) the time (especially the time) and b) the system is not there yet. You can have a workaround by creating two seperate competitions (UB and LB), which I did for the prem pre-season playoffs for the past two seasons, but it’s not really worth the effort for the minimal changes it might make.

And no we wont add addtional time to the playoffs, unless you only want one or so 6v6 season per year.

Quoted from AB

their off season runs for 2-3 months like ours

S17
Week 1 commencing from Jan 26, 2014 to Feb 2, 2014
Week 7 commencing from Mar 9, 2014 to Mar 16, 2014
Grand Finals: Apr 10

^
1 month
v

S18
Week 1 commencing from May 11, 2014 to May 18, 2014
Week 7 commencing from Jun 22, 2014 to Jun 29, 2014
Grand Finals: Jul 24

^
2 months (Nations cup + iseries)
v

S19
Week 1 commencing from Sep 28, 2014 to Oct 5, 2014
Week 7 commencing from Nov 9, 2014 to Nov 16, 2014
Grand Finals: Nov 30

^
2 months (christmas, new years, …)
v

S20
Week 1 commencing from Feb 1, 2015 to Feb 5, 2015
Week 7 commencing from Mar 15, 2015 to Mar 19, 2015
Grand Finals: Mar 29

There wont be a lot of time between S20 and S21, otherwise S21 will run too deep into summer. While we are saving 2 weeks in the prem playoffs by having only 3 teams in the playoffs instead of 4 and having those 2 matches on one day, we are gaining 2 weeks in tier playoffs. So effectively we are only saving 1 week to before the tier and revised playoff system. Additionally the seasons get announced way before week 1 already and often enough there’s pre season playoffs. Theres enough teams complaining about not enough time between the seasons already to form new teams or forming new teams and reaching a decent level together or even to have some time of not playing tf2 before having to pcw again.

Quoted from AB

and regarding your other argument, even the best of teams can have an off day and lose to a worse team on the day.

Here comes the football analogy everyone has been waiting for. Brazil might have only had a bad day against Germany as well, but they still lost and had to go home, at least home wasnt that far away. :> They could easily revise their group stage into single elim system as well into a group stage into double elim, but they dont, because they dont have the time. Obviously playing tf2 isnt as exhausting as playing a football world cup and relatively shortly after that you have to start playing for your club again. But time still is the most important factor speaking against it. One or two weeks more dont seem like a lot, but they make all the difference there is. Especially if everything is very tightly fitted in and organised.

Quoted from Permzilla

I can’t believe you’re seriously suggesting running it on challonge, what would even be the point of our backend system – we could just run the whole season on it! Can you imagine any league running a tournament not on their website?

/gives UGC burn-heal

I’m thinking open might have too many teams in it. So far we’ve played 4 matches and every time we’ve lost points the next week we get matched against opponent who we then beat 5-0 5-0.

With just 7 matches in a season it might take too long for this system to really start working when you have tier with 150+ teams.

Quoted from L-iNC

I’m thinking open might have too many teams in it. So far we’ve played 4 matches and every time we’ve lost points the next week we get matched against opponent who we then beat 5-0 5-0.

With just 7 matches in a season it might take too long for this system to really start working when you have tier with 150+ teams.

I don’t know if someone has been overselling the close games thing, but it’s really not how Swiss systems work, at least not until close to the end. The primary benefit is that at the end you will be in a position that’s fair and that you’ve earned without having to play every single team in the league (impossible for obvious reasons) so you can deal with very large groups in one league.

That means you can give prizes, be more flexible over participation numbers, you don’t have people competing in isolation with good divs and bad divs at supposedly the same level, teams get a better feeling for progression, etc. It’s much more interesting to see who is doing well, there’s a much clearer picture in the one group of the whole bracket.

It’s also worth considering just how much things like the map effect the result. For example at i52 Immunity and Mixup had a close knockout game, coming down to golden cap and ubersaw heroics on Snakewater. But the two maps before that were comfortable wins to either team. There’s no way to predict which games will be close really.

In terms of the number of games the league is committing to Open is the only div large enough by normal calculations. I think fixtures for the Mid and High divisions might get pretty weird by the end, but we’ll see.

Quoted from L-iNC

I don’t know how sophisticated the system that creates match fixtures is but currently there are 38 teams in open with 2-4 record (also 37 teams with 4-2 record). If I’ve understood correctly how the fixtures are picked then the system randomly matches these 38 teams against each other.

There were some ‘virtual’ points earlier on that made it a bit unclear but they disappear at some point (already gone I think), then it’s only 4-2 teams against other 4-2 teams and 2-4 teams against other 2-4 teams, with exceptions for teams with unusual records with no matching opponent or who have already played the only qualifying opponent. There may be some luck, getting your good maps at the right time for example, but it will even out.

By the end of the 8 games your position will be fair. If you’re worried about whether a handful of positions in mid table are 100% accurate, they may not be but in the old system there was simply no representation of a middle placed team’s level at all.

Open is definitely not too large, to work out the appropriate number of Swiss rounds for a group you take the log 2 of the total number of teams rounded up. Even with 200 teams 8 rounds is fine. It may be made muddier by things like the golden cap rules, but those are compensated for by the accelerated pairings.

My team’s week 5 game is against the same team we’ve played on week 2. Is it normal?
http://etf2l.org/matches/57158/