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[ETF2L] Swiss Style Tournament System
Created 13th November 2014 @ 00:57
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I think Kaneco said in that other post already, but when I started playing ETF2L climbing divs was fun and you always have this sense of accomplishment. You get your Medal and a Pixel Trophy. You WON.
In a swiss-system you are just losing a little less.
Quoted from Admirable
You can’t even draw on Viaduct with the current rule set?!
That’s not a question. Heil grammar.
Quoted from Admirable
Where is the consistency.
If we choose to operate from the stance that there are no draws, then that only leaves winning and losing, not this bastardised points bonanza.
LEGO failed to win either map tonight, yet they got awarded a point that resulted in them winning Division 1. Absolute madness :D
With Koth in particular the problem with dead time under the EU ruleset would reach patently ludicrous proportions so something different has to be done for that, whether you consider it a fault of the game format or the league rules is a matter of opinion.
The rules are the same for everyone, HKN knew they had to win outright and they couldn’t do it. Forcing bigger points swings based on the situation might produce more instability and bigger “dramatic” results, but it doesn’t produce natural justice.
There wouldn’t be more hype as a result either, it would just change the scale of what is worthy of hype, leaning more towards chaos when a fairer reflection of skill is available. You might as well draw straws for the win.
I think this is quite an interesting idea with some good potential, although it has some issues. I’m speaking entirely from a Highlander perspective in what I’m about to write by the way.
Prem
I would imagine that Premiership Division would remain roughly the same. That is to say that it is still the 8 (or so) best teams in a division separate from everyone else. I would expect that this division would stay round-robin (?), but then that is confusing and would mean that there were two different tournament systems operating within one league. Practically I suppose that there is actually no difference for Prem if they ran round-robin or a ladder-based system seeing as each team would play the other anyway.
IM & Open
With the remaining divisions the question is how to convert them into swiss-style without generating whining. It makes sense that divisions 6, 5, and 4 would be in one bracket whilst 3, 2, and 1 are in another but this will inevitably lead to moaning from teams who think they are too good for either Open or IM. Teams should be able to move down divisions freely should they choose to (with the exception of aiming to roll the lower division). Moving up should be possible, but not free to all. Only exceptional circumstances.
My biggest worry about this is that it will effectively waste the first few weeks of a season. For example, a current Div1 team plays a few Div3 teams and rolls in the first few matches until the division starts to balance itself out around relative skill. This is boring and pointless for both teams involved and represents the biggest issue in my opinion.
A possible solution to this is to have very loose ‘intra-divisional boundaries’ so, for example, the start of a season works much the way that it does now, with teams submitting proof of their skill level. When the divisions are drawn up, teams are seeded based on this data. Current Div1 teams go straight to the top of the IM division, Div2 teams in the middle, and Div 3 teams at the bottom.
This obviously falls apart after one week as a Rank 1 team with two points would appear the same as a Rank 3 team with two points. So, a possible fix is to allocate teams some points at the start of the season based on their starting intra-divisional rank. So for example, a Rank 1 team in IM, starts with 2 points. A Rank 3 team starts with none. Due to the nature of the tournament, it is still possible for a Rank 3 team to come up and win the division, but the first few matches should be closer matched.
(Inb4 I’ve misunderstood how the Swiss-League works and this isn’t even an issue)
Playoffs
1. Does Prem get playoffs? If so, is it between the top 4 teams or the whole division?
2. There should be a consolation playoff (much like UGC) for the teams which don’t make the top 16 in IM and Open. I used to be very serious about Steel back when I played there in UGC so I think it would be a shame not to cater to the enthusiasm of the worse teams just because they are worse.
3. Someone should totally get some hype going around this. A big stream organised in advance for the Prem grand final :D
On an unrelated note, what are the chances of getting another Highlander Season in per year? I know you have to balance with UGC and 6s but between Season 6 and Season 7, there were about 4 months of regular season. A bit more for Prem because of the playoffs, I want moar :D
Quoted from Gentleman Jon
With Koth in particular the problem with dead time under the EU ruleset would reach patently ludicrous proportions so something different has to be done for that, whether you consider it a fault of the game format or the league rules is a matter of opinion.
The rules are the same for everyone, HKN knew they had to win outright and they couldn’t do it. Forcing bigger points swings based on the situation might produce more instability and bigger “dramatic” results, but it doesn’t produce natural justice.
There wouldn’t be more hype as a result either, it would just change the scale of what is worthy of hype, leaning more towards chaos when a fairer reflection of skill is available. You might as well draw straws for the win.
Stepping back from the history of how this rule came to be, I am coming round to your point of view.
Certainly a draw is a fair result when you are playing on the same map against everyone or even the same game mode.
Most football leagues you get to play every other team both home and away – that’s fair.
In ETF2L who you face on what maps or what game modes is determined by pot luck by the league schedule.
You are saying that when two teams are closely matched, the golden cap is the equivalent of a penalty shoot-out. Some distribution of points is a fairer representation of the teams performances than forcing an absolute victory.
How then do we apply that to differing game modes which appear to produce noticeably different outcome probabilities. Can we make the probability of a draw roughly equivalent across the map pool?
Let’s quote wikipedia:
“The primary disadvantage of the Swiss system is its complexity. For example it would not usually be suitable for a football tournament because for practical reasons, the fixtures need to be arranged in advance, with plenty of notice being given of each match.”
You have basically no time for scheduling. The week starts and the default dates have to be set already. If you don’t want to play on Friday or Saturday you have 3 days at best (depends results have to be submitted until Saturday 23:59 instead of Sunday). Unless the opposing team happens to play on the same days as you do usually, you’ll have to play on the default date.
->If you can’t play on the default date, you can’t play that season.
I’m sure one could implement a system for teams to specify their preferred times/days and have the default date automatically set in case of an overlap. But if there’s no overlap you still got the same problem. Unless all the players can change their plans on a days notice the default date has to be set to a day when neither team can play.
->shit-tons of games full of subs and mercs and/or lots of default losses/conflips/nullified matches.
So it’s either UGC style play-on-the-default-date-or-don’t or soften up the system and set the fixtures one week earlier (which is still much more difficult for scheduling compared to having the whole season and wildcards).
The swiss system scheduling part in UGC is actually not “that” strict.
Yes, there are no wildcards but after they get the results on Monday, sometimes Tuesday and rarely Wednesday the schedules for next week are usually up on Thursday and you can agree to play on any day Fritday – Tuesday (maybe even Wednesday).
Maybe a similar thing can be used here, just not with a set default date that teams with poor sportsmanship can refer to when their opponents happen to be busy on that day or idk…
Not sure if it has been mentioned yet, sorry if I missed it.
How many matches would a season consist of? I know many of my friends and I think a typical UGC season is too long and much prefer the more compact ETF2L seasons. Is it viable to still have around 7 week seasons when the first few weeks are needed to balance the opponents’ skill levels?
I know there has been a lot posted, but I am seeing questions which have been answered already! It would be much appreciated if you could try and give it a read before posting, I know it’s long (mostly my fault – sorry) but it could answer your question.
Quoted from Selek
Not sure if it has been mentioned yet, sorry if I missed it.
How many matches would a season consist of? I know many of my friends and I think a typical UGC season is too long and much prefer the more compact ETF2L seasons. Is it viable to still have around 7 week seasons when the first few weeks are needed to balance the opponents’ skill levels?
It would be a very similar length, 7 or 8 weeks. And playoffs on top of that.
Quoted from S@GA
The swiss system scheduling part in UGC is actually not “that” strict.
Yes, there are no wildcards but after they get the results on Monday, sometimes Tuesday and rarely Wednesday the schedules for next week are usually up on Thursday and you can agree to play on any day Fritday – Tuesday (maybe even Wednesday).
Maybe a similar thing can be used here, just not with a set default date that teams with poor sportsmanship can refer to when their opponents happen to be busy on that day or idk…
I am pretty sure UGC is run almost completely through manual fixture creation and spreadsheets, if we were to implement this system the fixtures can be generated immediately and therefore new fixtures can be up at 00:00 on the night of the deadline (theoretically).
Quoted from JoeTea
long post
Premiership Division would absolutely stay the same, Swiss System does not work for that small amount of teams. I really wouldn’t say either system is terribly confusing, it sounds like you’re trying to come up with something bad. ESEA used two different systems and its fine.
Something that seems to be on most peoples minds, are the first few weeks where the fixtures could be generated randomly. That would be a true Swiss System, however there is an Accelerated Swiss System which gives the top 50% of teams a win before the fixtures are generated. This will then give much more even fixtures for the first couple weeks and there-on. That is basically a more sophisticated version of what you said, though.
Prem would have Playoffs still. Depending on how the current system for Season 19 will go, it might be changed. Hard to say for now but we like the schedule for Season 19.
The problem with a consolation playoff is; where do you stop? Consider the total of Div5+Div6 teams this season (156) which minus the top 16 teams would be 140 teams. It’s obviously not possible to make playoffs for 140 teams, so how many? Another 16? 64? You wouldn’t be playing for prizes so I’m failing to see the point. Until about a week ago no one below top div1/prem played playoffs.
Almost impossible to get another season in, people complain about clashes with 6s enough as it is already. I’d like to add more, but we only have time for 5 seasons a year and 6s takes priority.
I am guessing this would be a UGC style system for div6? If so you wouldn’t need to remove golden caps just have a points total which is used as the secondary way of ranking teams.
The big issues is you would need to have a longer season (10 games honestly), a set date for games (ETF2L has never liked this) and playoffs (even longer season). I honestly think it would be too hard to get to work with how ETF2L is set up.
But there are some really big positives for people new to comp. (Games are closer, teams folding becomes less of an issue, a bigger achievement for doing well, less admin hassle).
Anything that breaks up the complete horror show that is the current division system. Please god.
totally agree with kaneco, i agree with admirable regard the GC reward, things are fine as they’re now, why would we change it? Also why are we copying americans, again?
#NOSwissSystem
Last edited by rockie,
Quoted from S@GA
[…]
Maybe a similar thing can be used here, just not with a set default date that teams with poor sportsmanship can refer to when their opponents happen to be busy on that day or idk…
This is very important. Its horrible to have a default day for officials, and give both teams the option to veto a reschedule. There needs to be a mutual agreement and cooperation :)
I think ETF2L is great as it is right now, I don’t think changing everything is necessary.
I personally would love to see a Swiss style system cause I’ve always thought the massive group way of doing divisions are better then 8 teams per div.
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