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Quoted from Setlet

[…]

It’s hard to make balanced divs in lower divisions.

newsflash, every lower div will be always unbalanced. There’s always an entry point and there will be various teams at different stages of that entry point, it’s not gonna be a swiss system that’s gonna magically fix this as I said.

If u wanna fix it, maybe stop jackasses with div2-3 experience from playing in div6 and trolling the whole season.

Quoted from Tomu

[…]

Or..use the swiss style and it will sort itself.

“it’s not gonna be a swiss system that’s gonna magically fix this as I said.”

It’s like people dont even read.

And if you trust a system that has no rescheduling mechanisms or flexibility to be more noobfriendly than the current system you’re crazy.

You’re still gonna see teams playing opponents not quite their level, and worse, you’re gonna see even more teams left behind because they can’t accommodate the scheduling/default dates limitations of the swiss system.

Quoted from fraac

The fixtures work in ESEA because every player has paid money. That’s why I think a modified ladder system is best for a big div.

It won’t work any differently than in ESEA, they are just used to having their schedules dictated to them, it’s part of the deal from the start so they stick to it. In ETF2L it’s taking something away so it’s a bigger problem.

@Kaneco, the Swiss system won’t guarantee to produce even games, or particularly close games and no one is claiming that, but it will produce fair results from a large group. Tf2 in general and 6v6 in particular inherently produces 5-0 or 6-1 games even between closely matched teams, and there is always a huge discrepancy between what maps teams are good on, whether they’ve scrimmed well that week, etc. The final result will reflect the quality of your team across all the maps over all the weeks, just like a normal league.

After 7 rounds or whatever any teams that have gone undefeated will be deserving winners, there won’t be any injustice there unless admins allow a clearly unsuited team/player into that group in the first place.

The experience of who you end up playing will really be no different to most players, the experience won’t vary significantly from simply being (apparently arbitrarily) placed in a league group. The scheduling thing is more of a problem, although theoretically it can allow more flexibility, in that you simply lose a game you don’t play and come back the next week. There will still be some flexibility but only within the framework of a particular week. How many new players do you think that is likely to alienate?

I’m not a champion for this, I just know about how it works. It allows you to pit a very large group of teams/players together into a competition where it will identify the consistently good and that makes it much easier to give prizes and promote it as a lower level competition. In that respect it’s friendly for newer players. That’s also something that may attract some higher ability players, so it’s fair to say it alters the challenge for admins.

Quoted from fraac

The fixtures work in ESEA because every player has paid money. That’s why I think a modified ladder system is best for a big div.

Nah, the scheduling system in ESEA allows people to take easy default wins if the other team doesn’t bother scheduling. This is why people take scheduling in ESEA more serious, nobody wants to have their matches defaulted.

Sometimes one team rolls their division, sometimes one team gets destroyed. During my tiny comp career i’ve always seen even-ish divisions where 5+ teams have a chance to get in the top3. Even tho sometimes teams are placer higher/lower than their skill level is, I don’t see this system as a problem. Or is it important that one group in div6-4 has 8 teams with even skill level?

Quoted from Hallow

mate kaneco i’m saying that being 7th in open is a more fair representation of your skill than being div3 in that you’ve likely beaten teams from div6 to div3, while just being in div3 probably just means you had some good screens before the season. us rating skill by division is quite arbitrary anyway, any replacement would probably do the same thing, just with different labels

And if you’re div 3 , and if the admins did their job correctly when seeding divisions it pretty much means you would have beaten teams from div6-div3 as well… Except now you have a official and much more restrictive skill tier for which you can refer when you are asked instead of just saying, “huh, yeah, I’m open, whatever that means”

It wouldn’t do the same thing because it’s an entirely different system starting from scheduling to the very end of player progression and evaluation.

Guess if this ladder/swiss system is so perfect and magical the biggest sport in the planet would be using it after 100 years no?

Quoted from Permzilla

[…]

It’s currently viable to give out prizes to lower division (see the newspost), but it would mean that we could give out bigger prizes to lower divisions if they were a smaller number of teams to give out to.

For example currently we are giving prizes to Prem 1st, 2nd, 3rd, div1 winner, div2 winner, div3 winner, div4 winner, div5 winner, div6 winner. If there were, for example, 3 groups we could give prizes to Invite 1st, Invite 2nd, Invite 3rd, IM 1st, Open 1st. It would mean winning Open as a ~div3/4 (?) team would actually give you a decent prize, and not €50 to split between 6 of you.

That is what my initial thoughts were to consider the system, if we ever want to give prizes to lower divisions it is a whole lot easier and more meaningful in the swiss system.

So pretty much the reason that made you thought about switching systems is prize distribution? Why would we need to hand out prizes for div3-4 below? Heck, for prem-div1 I can understand, sometimes even up to div2, after that it reeks of rewarding mediocrity.

That’s exactly the motivation you should have to get to the higher divisions, if you really play this for the prizes (LOLOL) you should be aiming for the very top, not hoping to win some div6 winner prize keys. In-game medals are more than enough of a prize already for the lower divisions, anything more seems redundant and counter productive if you really wanna promote competition and the highest level of gameplay at the higher levels.

Also this brings another problem, with team like yours ^^ (gubbins/kaidus/you, etc) sandbagging in lower divisions for prizes (which I didnt say your team did, but it could have easily turned that way)

Quoted from Gentleman Jon

It’s a compromise between having drawn maps or not, why play a golden cap at all when 2 teams fight to a standstill in normal time? Why should teams that have earned the draw then be punished just for the spectacle of the decisive round in largely meaningless league games?

In a Swiss system it makes sense to reward a team that does well but loses because it’s a more accurate reflection of their skill level for the next round.

The historic reason golden caps were introduced was because draws were more likely to occur on certain maps (Gravelpit main offender at the time).

So as all maps/draws were not considered equal and the schedule can’t accommodate playing every team on every map the common consensus was to remove draws all together.

The admins at the time decided to soften the blow by awarding these golden cap points, even though it still seems to contradict the reason for introducing the golden cap in the first place.